Stop Telling Me I Need To Read The Seth Material. I Have. I Don’t. It’s Crap.

jane_robnotes2I will never figure out why so many folks are so taken in by the allegedly channeled words Jane Roberts spoke as the character “Seth.” The basic tenet of Seth’s philosophy is demonstrably untrue. You can hear Jane/Seth speak it on the front page of http://www.sethlearningcenter.org – but I’ll sum it up for you here: your beliefs create reality.

From the aforementioned speech:

“…. [I]f you believe that you are poor, and always will be, then so your experience will so prove to you. Your beliefs meet you in the face when you look in the mirror. They form your image. You cannot escape your beliefs. They are, however, the method by which you create your experience.”

Beliefs and self-image are powerful factors in one’s life to be sure. But the end-all-be-all? Hardly. I have believed my entire adult life that I would likely die broke and alone–and not in the depressing way that that sounds. Well wait, let’s back up… Years ago, I had a “spiritual” unfolding for which I had no belief, not even an image of what that could be like, let alone that it would happen to me. And a lot of what happened was the blossoming of things I did not believe in. Had they not happened to me I would still, to this day, brush them off as silly New Age notions. As a result of these spiritual shenanigans, I became absolutely contented to live alone, die alone, and in poverty. In fact, I’m still contented to do that but as fate would have it, I’ve fallen in love, we’re talking about marriage, and certainly moving in together in our dream home very soon.

I did not believe it. I did not want it. I do not need it in the dysfunctional “you complete me” way. But I gracefully accept my good fortune here and realize that perhaps the greatest illusion we have in life is our sense of control, of mastery over anything, because the one thing that is true that is missing from the Seth material is that life throws ya curve balls whether you believe you’re in the game or not. And sometimes the ball hits you as you stand at home plate. bat in hand, daydreaming about creating a sandwich. Yes, sometimes the pitch hits you and you get a free walk to first sending the player on third home and your team wins.

Sometimes poor people who believe they’ll always be poor win the lottery. Sometimes you don’t know you’re playing the lottery–like when Oprah has a car waiting for you when you thought you were just going to see her interview someone. And sometimes you’re poor, believe you deserve to be rich, and still die broke. Like most poor people.

Sometimes you think you’re on top of the world and you crash. You get sick. You die young. You don’t die young enough. You blah-blah-blah. You get it. Because you live here. Seth doesn’t live here. So Seth doesn’t get it.

That’s the best I can say for “him.”

 

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126 thoughts on “Stop Telling Me I Need To Read The Seth Material. I Have. I Don’t. It’s Crap.

  1. I am a Seth lover. I think I take it differently than you are. To me it has more in common with shamanism. You are here to be your true self. You need to really get rid of a lot of crap in order to find yourself in there. Maybe you were last truly yourself when you were a child before everything that ever happened to you kept piling up and then you cant remember. But if you can focus on the idea that if you can just think of something you can make it happen, you can get up and do that carpe diem stuff. Everything begins with a thought. Sometimes you have to make a dogged effort at being aware of your thoughts which might be sabotaging what you want because for example while you want a better job you spend a lot of your time just thinking about how much you hate your boss and finding comradery with colleagues that way so you never leave.The only way to leave is actually to believe it and plan it and actualize it. Let the hate for the boss go and focus on your future. Is it fear that stops you? Face it. It is not magic. Creating your own reality is just what you do whether you want to say it is hogwash or not.

    The whole business about winning or not winning the lottery is not helpful to the concept because it is not what Seth ever talks about. Seth is not about winning the lottery or winning at something. it is your life he is talking about. The whole thing is not easy. Jane Roberts died after a long illness and was not able to heal herself. It probably was possible for her to heal herself and come out on the other side. Shamans do it but it is not easy or magic. You do have to be open to it happening (at least unconsciously) but also prepared to die I suppose. Anyway, the love I have for Seth is for his humor and good advice. His ideas seem to lead me in a positive direction and more in tune with myself. Your beliefs that make your experience are not so easily changed. You have to tease them out from the way you see yourself and how you make your way through the world. You have to question everything. DO you ever notice how certain things happen to a person a lot? Maybe someone has over and over chosen the wrong romantic partner. Maybe they over and over have inexplicable accidents or illnesses. Maybe you notice that one person at work fights with everyone. I bet they think that people are picking on them . they will think anything except notice that no one fights with anyone else. In all those cases the person themself causes rotten relationships because of how they see themself in a relationship. They are not really even present with that partner because they are very concerned with that partner being “the one”. the person causes accidents over and over because of a lack of attention or being hurried. They get sick a lot and have depressed immune systems from not caring for their own body. These things can suck you in like a whirlpool and you cant even see it even if it might be obvious to someone else.
    Of course you understand that bad things can happen randomly and there are accidents and people fall out of love and it just means the love is over and not anyone’s fault. But just notice in yourself the beliefs you have about how you make your way through the day and see if you can make it more how you want it to be by being aware of your own emotions and being present. in the moment. what is happening right now. You did it when you wrote your book and made your blog and moved to hawaii. Would you have imagined those things when you were 12? now you have these new developments and are going in a new surprising direction. Maybe you got yourself in that position and it is not luck. It seems surprising but it can only happen in its own way when you are ready.You laid the groundwork.
    The point I am trying to say is in shamanism you try to be able to face whatever happens with a steadfastness. Not to be blown about by everything but to be able to cope with whatever. Enjoy the good, accept the bad, enjoy life. See opportunies and take them. I feel like Seth is saying the same thing. Be yourself, live big. What do you want to do with your life? really?

    I love Seth. I return to his writing over and over. Also you really might enjoy the Trilogy by Jane Roberts called The Oversoul Trilogy. NOT channeled but incorporating concepts from the Seth writings. Wonderful wonderful book.

    I did not expect to go on and on ranting. Hope I made some sense. I just had to say something to that. I think your podcast on Unknown Country is fantastico btw-Melissa

    • I get what you are saying, but Seth seems to be all-in on the notion that belief creates your reality. While true to an extent, it’s not the end all/be all and it’s context-specific. I don’t think a person repeats dysfunctional behavior necessarily because of how they see themselves. Most people have crap relationships because that’s how they saw their parents interact, they learned subtle cues, which became the unconscious driver of their behavior. I suppose you could say that they unconsciously believe that this is how relationships should be, therefore they have to examine themselves to get to the root of that belief. And that’s fine. That’s called psychology. We don’t need a channeled spirit to tell us what we all already know, do we?

      And I’m certain that oil and lumber companies are not performing genocide on villages in the Amazon because the indigenous people haven’t worked out their mommy and daddy issues. How are their beliefs creating their experience?

      Again, Seth is saying that this is the cold hard fact that predicts us, period. Well no. It’s a factor. One of many.

      • I think you’re inexperienced than a lot of others out and about. You’re physicalism shows too much.

      • I so get you Jayvay… all the way. I used to follow the Abraham teachings for 5 years (like fully and manifesting lots) but came to realize just how much of it is delusion… spiritual lies. Unfortunately people can only realize if/ when they wake up out of the trance 😉 I am enjoying writing a book for those who might be questioning these things. Coming soon.

        Thanks for sharing your perspectives. Always great to see more people not falling for the BS. 🙂

  2. well yes, it IS psychology among other ways we have created to try and figure it out. Shamans have been working on it for a long time before their were any psychologists. Who are we and what are we doing here and do we keep forgetting? anyway people repeat dysfunctional behavior because of how they are not seeing themselves. They cant see that they are dysfunctional. It takes seeing it to stop it. hello I am John and I am an alcoholic. It takes a person a long time to say that. Maybe they have already destroyed their life before they face it and see it for what it is.
    As for being born into a terrible situation or being the person who does horrible crap. That is uncomfortable if you try and stick with the idea that your are just randomly given a raw deal and it is not fair. Unless you accept (by “accept” I mean for the purpose of reading the material, like when you watch a movie you follow along the plot even if it is nonsensical) that you chose it for some growth purpose and can change it when that is done. Which in most cases would mean leaving, under most impossible circumstances of racism and poverty and ideas of caste.Or just being in it and accepting it and rising above it. But we cant solve the problems of the world we can only address ourselves and in this way address the world. Forget about karma as we often think of it since Seth says that there is no time really, we are inside this place where we live out our life linearly but we are also living in different timelines at the same time since there is no time outside of our perceptions.These connected lives can and do affect each other. We are in a much larger reality than we realize. Shamans would say this too. We have all the ancestors and guides participating. I dont think Seth was about calling in invisible helpers but then, what was he?

    I am not saying that I just buy it all and agree with it because he said it. I dont run around quoting Seth but I enjoy thinking about it in relation to other ideas and in relation to my own life and experiences. Seth was a bodiless entity during the time of the channeling but he was human before. He is not a god or angel. He is a smart fascinating mind for sure. Who is to say what the connection between Jane Roberts and Seth actually is/was. It doesnt really matter to me. The books are there full of ideas that are so interesting even if, or especially because some of it is challenging. I dont need to love everything you write to feel that you are worth reading. But then I am free to pick and choose what resonates with me.

    I totally understand he is not your thing. But people keep telling you that you would love Seth I think because he has a good sense of humor. He knows how to laugh. So maybe if you approached it in a more light hearted way like you were going to play at bending spoons, you would see. I used that spoon idea as a joke but it is true in the sense that in order to bend a spoon you cant really care if you do it or not but it is very entertaining and nothing threatening or irritating in it. Although people can and do get irate that you cant bend spoons as if that is something to get all up in arms about, Do it or not, it’s fun.

  3. Excellent comments, Melissa…I agree with you and Seth. The belief that by placing one foot in front of the other a person will arrive at their goal is what motivates them to do what’s required and succeed. It’s hard to imagine otherwise. People have a tendency to get bogged down in negative and defeatist thinking, putting them in a rut and consequently not doing the legwork — wishing for a miracle to occur. I suppose that they do occur, but unless you believe you can pull yourself out, I wouldn’t count on it. Never give up hope and never give in to victimization…F that.

    • That’s true. But then there are those who can’t get a leg up because they’re beaten back down. I think belief creating reality in the Sethian world view stems from white privilege. So what do we do for those born into LA gangs, for instance? Children in America who display greater symptoms of post traumatic stress disorder than those in war-torn Baghdad? When do we step away from the mirror and stop with the eternal “self-improvment” to see what’s happening with our neighbors? Seth says their poverty comes from believing in poverty. And it might look that way if one ignores history and the origin of the Crips/Bloods gangs.

      I smell a new youtube video coming on.

  4. I dont think it is that poverty comes from believing in it. Poverty is reality because we live in it. It is a construct, the same way wealth is. The family in a gated community and the family on the reservation just a few miles away are a million miles apart mentally and emotionally. That is what Seth is talking about. The gang member and the investment banker can find common ground if they both look for their own humanity and attempt to reach their own potential as individuals. Not make the best gangster or best bankster. A person who wants to not be in their situation whether they give away their inheritance because they disgree with their fathers principles or they escape war torn Syria is doing the same thing. They are moving toward their own individualism and searching for their own potential. This can be an inspiration to others but they have to find their own way. it is not easy. Collecting a dividend check is way easier than trying to figure out who you are and what you are doing with your life. Being in a war is easier than trying to figure out who you are and what your are doing with your life.

    If you think about fair or not fair in regards to your life or someone elses life, how can you do anything? You will just punish yourself for not being in the worst situation? Or you will punish others because you are in the worst situation? I dont think you get Seth. I think you are confusing Seth with the whole ad campaign surrounding the Law of Attraction stuff. he is not about magic happy stuff.

    Everyone is really beaten back down every time they try and grow out of their situation.We are in it alone. Willy the Shake knew that, we love it and eat it with a spoon. Against all odds and all that.

    I just keep arguing with you about Seth because you are being so obtuse! 🙂 You are not giving the bodiless entity his due. He was brilliant. He was fun and he was not even here.

    • I’m not saying that people shouldn’t be politically active and fight injustice. I believe in helping people individually and collectively. However, saying that “there are those who can’t get a leg up because they’re beaten back down” completely dis-empowers them by denying them any self-agency. People are born into different circumstances with their own set of obstacles to overcome. Seth fully acknowledges this. However, whatever circumstance one finds themselves in, what is common to everyone is their ability to change their reality based upon their beliefs — provided they are within the realm of probability.

      People who are born in ghettos are not doomed to live out their lives there. They can leave. However, the probability of someone “succeeding” in that type of environment is relatively low. While there are external factors (such as racism) that lessen the odds of success, it is nevertheless within the realm of probability. One has little hope of breaking out of such living conditions unless they possess a strong belief system that is rooted in optimism and self-empowerment. Karma hasn’t been brought into the conversation yet, but I think Seth would argue that one reason individuals choose to incarnate in those environments is to develop those qualities that are constructive to a soul’s evolution.

      • “People who are born in ghettos are not doomed to live out their lives there. They can leave.” No, actually, they all can’t. They don’t have the money. The ability to just leave is a luxury to many. It’s not about self-agency, it’s about the myth of pulling yourself up by the bootstraps. Again, Jane Roberts was born in America. So it makes sense that the philosophy coming out of her played on the most hopeful myths of her culture. And this is where I need to do a video to further illuminate just how screwed up the situation is. Or, if you have the time and are willing, watch the documentary Crips and Bloods: Made In America. Then we can talk on equal footing about this. (It’s streaming on Netflix.)

        “Karma hasn’t been brought into the conversation yet, but I think Seth would argue that one reason individuals choose to incarnate in those environments is to develop those qualities that are constructive to a soul’s evolution.”

        See, this is where I bail out. It brings me to an offensive, invisible realm where the worst tragedies are made okay if we just believe that on some deeper level we wanted it to happen. I don’t find that deep, I find that gross unless I factor in Jane Roberts’s abusive childhood. Then it becomes a perverse type of empowerment for her. And that I understand. But as a truth claim? Not for me, thanks.

      • Jayvay: People who live in impoverished areas DO get themselves out. However, as I mentioned, statistically speaking the odds are stacked against them, but people do it. I’m not denying (or excusing) the fact that segregation and racism still exists in America and that white America isn’t culpable. On the contrary. The U.S. was founded by the genocide of the indigenous people and built up by the enslavement of the black population that now live under a new Jim Crow. It is only now that people are starting to understand that racism never really went away. While it’s getting more exposure, as a nation, we’re a long way from truly understanding this. So saying that black people can get out on the their own (by their “bootstraps”) without white people coming to real terms with systemic racism is a true statement. Again, that’s not to absolve white people from correcting the wrongs so that more get out.

        I find your argument defeatist because it does deny agency. Your saying that people who live in the inner cities have no hope because white people haven’t woken up yet; consequently, they should stop believing they can get out and give up on their efforts to do so. Wrong.

        The karmic/reincarnation issue I brought up is certainly not unique to Seth. In any event, it’s not necessary for the argument I’m making.

      • “Your saying that people who live in the inner cities have no hope because white people haven’t woken up yet; consequently, they should stop believing they can get out and give up on their efforts to do so.”

        No, that’s not what I’m saying. It would take too long to type out. However the general gist is that throughout history–and in the Crips/Bloods example, since the 1960s, African Americans have tried to get out from under the thumb of racism only to be pushed back again and again, seeing their “Black Is Beautiful” leaders killed or incarcerated, until, in California, they finally adopted a perverse version of what the authorities were doing to them. They got guns the way cops had guns. And they drew neighborhood lines the way cops drew neighborhood lines. And they created turf wars, becoming their own jailers. It’s friggen sad. And no amount of looking in the mirror and saying “Black is beautiful” stopped it. No amount of determination and pulling up by bootstraps even created a sustainable lower-middle-class reality! (On top of it all, the factories moved out leaving everyone broke and uneducated in the new tech industries. Blacks had jobs, not careers. Couldn’t Seth that into existence either.)

        I must stop watching documentaries. I just watched The Look of Silence. Have you seen this? My god, man, Indonesia is the third rung of hell. Methinks souls were not incarnating themselves there to learn a lesson by being one of a million farmers and union workers labelled “communist” and executed in the most horrific ways.

        Speaking of which, when do we actually learn those lessons? A few thousand more years? The 5th of Never? If I had students like us I’d immediately reincarnate into a vacation creature. Like a lizard. They just sit in the sun eating bugs. They are unconcerned with lessons, self-determination, or channeled knowledge. It’s a posh gig if you can stomach bugs.

  5. I don’t think he was brilliant. Here. I’ll prove it to you. “The gang member and the investment banker can find common ground if they both look for their own humanity and attempt to reach their own potential as individuals.” — Right. And I’ll bet you five bucks you didn’t need a bodiless entity to come here and tell you that. It’s self-evident. So, where’s the genius of Seth? Where’s the thing I didn’t have the inner compass to find? The self-evident is not the selling point. The selling point is the magical microwave of spirituality called “wish fulfillment.” Here’s what Seth actually said about poverty, no need to interpret:

    “And, if you believe that you are poor, and always will be, then so your experience will so prove to you. Your beliefs meet you in the face when you look in the mirror. They form your image. You cannot escape your beliefs. They are, however, the method by which you create your experience.

    “It is important that you here realize that you are not at the mercy of the unexplainable, that you are not at the mercy of events over which you have no control whether those events are psychological events or physical ones, in your terms.

    “As I have told you, there is little difference if you believe that your present life is caused by incidents in your early infancy or by past lives over which equally you feel you have no control. Your events, your lives, your experiences, are caused by your present beliefs. Change the beliefs and your life changes.”

    That’s not what you’re saying. What you’re saying is right. This is wrong. Or rather, it’s right for a young, creative white woman in the 1960s who had an abusive childhood and is now trying to make sense of the world, feel empowered, be heard, etc. THAT, to my mind, makes perfect sense of Seth. I’ll put another five bucks on the line that Seth reflects her world experience. That’s ten dollars! You could see Star Wars again!

  6. The message I get from Seth is to not experience everything as bad just because it is not what I want. Imagine maybe I did want that bad thing in order to get to the next step in my own progress. To actually consider that possibility. Yes, impossible to accept this if you are in an abusive relationship or were abused by a parent.How awful if someone were to suggest it was your own fault -that is just grotesque…. BUT it is freeing to contemplate that idea yourself in order to move on and let the past go. Sometimes it really takes an interior shift to move on from something that is holding you back. Fear is sometimes fear of the bad thing that hurts you or of the unknown thing that might be worse.. Out of the frying pan into the fire. So something has to change inside for an abused woman to reach the last straw and actually go and not return. To be done. Let go the feeling of bad stuff not being fair and just accept it. Nothing is fair. Don’t waste time bemoaning your lot. It is never worth the time unless it helps you make improvements. The whole point is what are you going to do?

    Seth never talked about banksters and gangsters, that was me. True. But I dont think the selling point of Seth is the wish fulfillment. Actually, there is no “selling” point since I dont want to sell anyone Seth. No one needs to sell Seth. It was just your post that was so pointedly asking people to please for once and all say something useful about Seth. Well I dont see that anyone EVER has actually been successful at wish fulfillment in the way you are talking about. Jane and Rob had jobs, life was hard. However, some people do seem to make great achievements in their one life and that is the goal. For some those achievements will not be groundbreaking but more personal. For some, they will be poetry or art. Their achievement will make a difference to other people. An elevating difference. Jane Roberts was a remarkable writer even in her own work. If she channeled herself it would not make a difference to me, I can still take the writing for what it is. Seth, or Seth/Jane. So I guess when I make wishes for myself , sometimes it might be the lottery but more often it is wanting to make my own way in the world and reach my potential. I dont want to regret.

    I think it would have been really fascinating to be there at that time, going to the apartment and listening to Seth. I am kind of interested in the idea of writing down intuitions that come up during the day. This is a Seth thing. Anything spontaneous that occurs to do, and then do it.The point of this is to check and see if intuitive thoughts actually are premonitions. So you need to check later and see if your intuitions turned out to be right. If you do this over time and can build your capacity for paying attention to your own intuitions, you can make your way better in the world and make better decisions. You train your intuitive sense to be stronger. I have started carrying a little notebook in my pocket but this is harder to do than I originally thought. I always forget to do it. Sigh. I will keep on it.

    yes, Seth did show me that I am not at the mercy of events but the events are there to figure out what is going on. If I keep having the same conversation but I dont want to anymore, I have to look at my part. Am I making it continue? Uh yeah. I am not convincing Jeremy to approach Seth with a light heart. I give up. Someone else have a go. ha ha I realize the part that hangs you up is a big part but you have to just let it be. The creating your own reality is a given and then move on. We really do not know the nature of reality. We think we do sometimes and then it changes. Let it. It was probably ufos that taught me that and not Seth.

    But I really love Seth and find the writing inspirational and frequently amusing. I think it is a way to approach life in the same way I think that a shamanic approach to life is also worthwhile. It is taking responsibility for yourself , all parts, head , heart , hands, soul, emotions, all of it, examine carefully how you are in the world and try to do better. and try not to get too heavy. Seth is funny.

  7. I was going to post this long-ass rant on The Experience after the latest podcast, but it got rejected, I guess for bad words. Then I was going to send it to you privately so you didn’t feel the need to defend yourself, but I couldn’t find a straight email addy. I’m going to post it here instead because this kind of post above is EXACTLY what I’m talking about – divisive, critical, hypocritical. Skeptical because it doesn’t fit your worldview, not because you’ve said or proposed anything less insane.

    Yes “The Secret” is ego-based and crap, but can we also throw out that we manifest reality, possibly on a level larger than moving atoms that make up our hands and feet? Intent works, even on dice rolls and even from the hardest skeptics. Dean Radin’s meta-analysis shows that. Prayer helps heal people — because angels or because intent? I’m guessing intent. (In fact, I’d wager why do people see angels – because intent!)

    Is some of the Seth material crap? Yes! Channels are never 100% the “other” — they always influence the material (same as UN translators), neither can our language convey the entirety of the message. But if you were in a position of knowing would you accept a bit of bad data (haha, like rendlesham binary codes!) to get across such important ideas as timelessness and thought-to-reality manifestation and positivity and moving away from calcified belief systems? If your behavioral and emotional center-point is what matters and facts are just roadside pointers to get to the right place then who cares if some of the data is bad. There’s dumb stuff about Jesus in the Seth material. I’m not sure I really believe Jesus ever existed — so what’s this from RA and Seth about Jesus? The older me would have immediately dismissed it and thrown it all out. The more nuanced understanding is to realize that THEY needed the Jesus stuff – the recipients of the message. Does that mean that Jesus is a fact? Hell no. It was what they needed to hear to move away from the church’s calcified Jesus story to a more fluid one about “Christ consciousness.” THAT is a kind of metaphorical pointer to something entirely real. Just like stoicism is real, or Quixotic romanticism — they’re places in our minds. Real places. We made them.

    Anyway, watch me manifest ideas into text. You’re calling out the Emperor’s new clothes while wearing a hairy peach track suit. As you said yourself, you’re stubborn as hell, have to be shown things over and over and over again before you bend — just like Jeff. Hell, Jeff had to be terrified and physically abused to see a different way of treating his son. “It” engendered a difference in him quite forcefully because he needed it. May the universe guide you as well. I’m moving on. My part here is done.


    “Why don’t the aliens just give us some science to prove their existence?” — why don’t you give a scientific proof to a chimpanzee and tell me how it works out? And yet, we ARE affecting gorillas and chimpanzees just by interacting with them. We ARE changing them in fundamental ways… it’s just not visible to materialist science. And maybe materialist science isn’t as important as we think it is which is why these beings operate on a more fundamental level, more like psychedelics than college professors: one class is all you need to change your life forever. Perhaps we’re currently so “scientifically” ass backwards that the proof that they would give us would have to be fundamentally wrong for us to accept it as right, and it would push us further in the wrong direction.

    Could the changes in dogs, chimps, gorillas, cats from interacting with humans affect them generationally? You betcha. Are the changes REAL? Yes, certainly. Can we detect it genetically? No, at least not yet. And yet we’re coming to understand that our code is affected by almost everything (e.g. epigenetics.) The initial question you ask assumes materialism. So do a lot of your questions and a lot of your skepticism, which greatly mirrors the skepticism of our sworn enemies, the new atheist science-worshiping hordes of skeptics who doubt even their own experiences because they’re being taught that scientific authority (consensus) is the only master that should be trusted. Very dangerous.

    Are there hybrids? Your knee-jerk response is to say no. So step back and ask again — are there people who’s minds have been changed by interactions with other intelligences? Yes, we think. Are those changes affecting them genetically? Even droughts affect us genetically for generations later, mice inherit fears genetically, so I’ll assume yes. Are the intelligences trying to change us? Seems to be. Will those changes affect us genetically? Yes.

    So: there are intelligences trying to change the way we think (by first breaking up our calcified belief systems) and consequently our genetics. Yes? I think it’s safe to say. Are those changes resulting in people being a little more like both “species”? Yes. They call it a hybrid. We really don’t have better words to go by. This is unmapped terrain because science won’t even look at it except in dismissal. And maybe science can’t. This is possibly bigger than matter and language can define.

    You know who talks about hybrids? Jacobs. You turned me off of Jacobs and I’m glad you pointed out the problems, but I watched his ’09 speech about hybrids on youtube the other day and enjoyed it. It coalesced with other things I’ve encountered. As you said in this podcast, “you look at this one experience from someone and you doubt it, but then another person tells you of the same thing and you’re like, hmm… maybe there’s more to this,” Jacobs said almost the exact same thing! And you’re both right… these stories from multiple people who don’t know each other that don’t fit convention or popular entertainment can’t just be dismissed. Yes, I read the ex-wife Hopkins hit piece too.

    All those concerns are well founded, but because of those concerns we’re going to also throw away that people (both hypno- and conscious recall) have seen aliens and hybrids and medical tables with stunningly similar details and without any evident hypnotic suggestions? It’s like dismissing non-violent protest after finding out Ghandi had some sexual misconduct. I love how materialist science refuses to look into these issues and then haughtily snipes from the sidelines, “that’s not science!” after having abdicated their responsibility. Well no duh, you left the whole game to the non-scientists! Science’s refusal to get involved is EXACTLY what allows ego-heroes of the UFO movement to rise up and take the mantle that science discarded.

    Much questions around this subject are resolved by thinking like Bernado Kastrup from an idealist perspective with consciousness as the precursor to matter and honestly I can’t see it any other way anymore. It fits too well. Bernardo gave me the language to explain it, but the concept had already incepted itself in me from my experimentation with hallucinogens.

    What if consciousness and heart and intent are the building blocks of the universe and the material world is more like the physical painting made by the emotions of the painter? The emotions are the important part, the painting is a physical snapshot/representation/manifestation of the emotional state at a particular point (or points) in time. A reference pointer. What if events are written from outside of time the same way you might go back and write/change pieces of a fictional book from anywhere in it’s timeline? The synchronicities, the tricksterisms, it all makes sense from that perspective… it’s not so mystifying from there. Who is provoking you in such a personal way? Who cares to sculpt the dumb minutia of your life and make you see numbers on clocks and other syncs? It’s YOU, dummy! But it can’t be taught. The wiser you get the more you just shut up and delete your post responses because these things are bigger than words, they can only be experienced. Maybe the “other” knows that better than we do. Perhaps that is the “science” of experience and maturation – that IS how you teach the more relevant lessons, not through theorems and formulas.

    Has tyler kokjohn ever done science in a dream? In a dream all constants are variables and the opinions of the observer change everything. What matters in the dream is emotional and intellectual provocation, not any internal consistency that can be cobbled together into dream science. It would be silly for anyone to tell you a scientific fact in the dream world about the dream world because there are no boundaries there; mapping limitation in dreams is a useless exercise.

    I saw the facebook exchange you referred to with the pro-hybrid guy. I made a huge rant to respond and deleted it. He is a bit obsessive and post-heavy, and obviously a true believer (and yet he respects dawkins? wtf?) and I’ve scoffed at some of his posts myself, but he absolutely has the right to express his opinion and I would never assume that my skepticism is superior to his belief simply because he has surrendered to things that I cannot. The same way I used to go to a party and scoff at people who had the power to “let go” and have a good time — just because I have a stick in my ass and can’t let go like they can doesn’t give me a judgmental high chair to berate them for it. It’s not superior to be socially aloof. In fact I’m kind of envious of them. As I get older now I think, god bless em, have at it. (Though I just don’t want to be in the same room as those party animals, excuse me…)

    The New Agers are the nicest people. Are they somewhat naive? Sure, they can be. That’s part of surrendering to trust. Science-lovers can be just as naive (e.g. we did NOT detect gravitational waves just because the media trumpets proclaimed we did, sorry.) But the New Agers are opening their hearts in a way that I can only stand on the sideline and watch with curiosity. I can’t do it personally, I’m too skeptical or stunted or something. (Their embracing love and openness is frankly far less scary than a scientist who can torture animals in the most horrible way for some greater good.) I CAN accept a hierarchy of consciousness intellectually and a larger intent to the universe than humans can’t conceive of, but I can’t take that last step and fit a “God” into my heart. I get it all, I just can’t. But that doesn’t make me or them superior. It just is. I don’t judge them. I really really like most of them and I hate that you spit on them so, especially when much of Whitley’s audience is probably people closer to that angle than yours. I’m glad they are in the world. I don’t think hyper-belief is our future, just as I don’t think hyper-skepticism is our future, but I’m not so naive to think that either are mistakes or errors in judgment. This is how we get where we’re going.

    As hybrid-guy said, he met the people who say they are hybrids and they are kind and quite believable people. As are the people on your show. Are the stories highly unusual? Yes. You make exceptions for your and Jeff’s stories and anyone on the show, but pooh pooh everyone else’s. Your club is too exclusionary for me. I get nervous when someone mentions hypnosis in a positive way on your show because I don’t know how you’re going to react. You’ve built a castle of criticisms and judgments and walls and it’s too complicated. I’m trying to see where everything connects. I want a bigger tent not a smaller one.

    You *are* a nice person and I’ve greatly enjoyed your podcasts. I like animals too. But I gotta go.
    (That school of life — I think I just graduated. A bit.)

    • It’s not at all complicated. When I see a toy on a string I don’t investigate it. When I see third-rate channeled philosophy, I don’t listen to it. And when I see delusional people picking up where contactees left off, claiming to be hybrids, I don’t entertain them. You can if you like, of course, but then please don’t bitch when no one outside of the subculture bubble takes any of this seriously. (Not you personally. I mean folks in ufology. I suppose Seth acolytes don’t really care about the research angle.)

      I wish everything smelled like roses to me, too, so I didn’t feel compelled to call bullshit on bullshit. But sometimes bullshit is just bullshit, dude. If you get something out of it, fine. But don’t tell me that makes it equally valid to everything else. There ARE judgements in this world. And that is one of them.

    • Hey, here’s a question for you–And be honest…. If I were railing against fundamentalist christians would we be having this conversation? Because I suspect what gets you so irate is that you believe yourself to be wise enough to pick out the shit from Shinola and so if I’m dismissing something you believe to be Shinola, it feels like I’m dismissing you, personally (which I’m not.)

      But honestly, think about it. If I wrote a series of posts about something you knew to be bullshit–or felt strongly against–you wouldn’t bat a lash at my “hypocrisy.” It’s only when I claim to see a falseness you do not that I’m the elitist in the room.

      • Firstly, in my younger days, I always fought with fundamentalist Christians. I was a staunch atheist and I never really shook my critical nature even today. I’m having to claw my way out of it to believe the stuff I do — and that’s only through making parallels between so many different areas with corresponding ideas (as if someone is trying to tell us something: channeling, psychadelics, meditation, near death experiences, UFO contacts, UFO contactees, Ouija boards, hypnosis transcripts — its just (spiritual? emotional? intellectual?) prompts towards change using different guises!)

        These days I don’t fight xtians. I have sympathy for them and even a little envy. They can access something in the heart that I cannot. There is huge power there: confidence, strength, community, but you have to surrender to it. That’s my stumbling block. I will not surrender lest I lose my sight.

        That’s not what you asked though, you asked if YOU were railing against fundamentalist Christians would I take up their defense? I think I would. If you said on the air, “I love Jesus, I go to church every Sunday, I saw a statue weeping blood, I read the bible every day, I’m voting for whoever says Jesus the most in political speeches, I love people that protest abortion clinics, I love war, but MAN OH MAN, those Christians, what silly a-holes THEY are, huh folks?” Yes, I would smack.

        You misunderstand the disconnect here. I do not think MYSELF to be an arbiter of what is bullshit and what is not, I think it absolutely ridiculous that you think that YOU are. It’s kind of like Jeff analyzing UFO pictures — ok, this one is real, this one is not, now there’s balloons, and drones, and CGI, and chinese lanterns, and we don’t use film anymore now its crappy digital squares, and everybody has photoshop — aw fuck it, what’s real anymore?

        Which of the following is bullshit:
        > A man talks to a being in a black shroud who berates him and eventually tells him he comes from a tiny fractal universe
        > A man sees 11:11, 12:12, 1:11, all the freaking time. Other synchronicities follow in waves.
        > A man accidentally has a kundalini experience and becomes the entire universe, sees that the sun is conscious, and flies through everything, and has an energy that moves his body into yoga postures when he relaxes into it
        > A woman says that she was in her living room when she saw a reptilian being out of the corner of her eye and could ONLY see it out of the corner of her eye, but talked to it and felt a huge feeling of love coming from it despite how ugly and scary it was —
        > A woman starts having visions of a praying mantis and it prompts her to write a book
        > A man touches a UFO and sees binary code in his head, jots it down in his journal
        > A group of Italian contactees in the 50s met regularly with a man from a flying saucer who was human in appearance and claimed that they came to Earth for fruit and needed more fruit, so they would give them loads of fruit in exchange for wisdom and chats (the friendship ufo case)
        > A man in ’47 gets told by a pharmacist to go see a UFO with his buddy in the town square, ends up with 5 hours of missing time. They saw a fleet of UFOs that LOOKED LIKE DEAD PEOPLE, including a skull, and then they turned into blondes wearing military fatigues, writing on chalk boards. (I actually stole this from behind the paywall on Linda Moulton Howe’s site… shh… I read it yesterday: southlakecorp.com/brooke/Earthfiles.pdf)
        > A woman keeps having dreams where she is taken by weird grey aliens and being shown a small child with huge inviting eyes, pale skin, and sparse hair and keeps getting prompted to hold it even though the child doesn’t respond much at all. She has the feeling that it is her child, but it also seems to be more like them. As if a hybrid of the two.
        > A man gets probed in the anus to have sperm samples taken and is visited by greys during meditation
        > A man gets taken in a UFO from his car, has sperm samples taken, and it leaves a triangle of red marks around his groin area
        > A woman gets taken by a UFO and sees loads of glass tubes where human bodies are grown, watches greys transfer a soul into one of them. They point to her body trying to explain something to her, as if she’s got a back-up in case she dies.
        > A football presenter thinks he’s Jesus and says it on national television, becomes the most ridiculed man in the UK, has synchronicities where strangers start admitting to him out of nowhere that they’ve seen people in high positions of power turn into large (6’+) reptilian aliens for a second, he goes on to fill stadiums talking about Reptilian aliens and other conspiracies, talks about love and light
        > A man in the 40s is messing about with a radio and starts receiving messages from “Mars” where UFOs and flying saucer occupants start messaging him via morse code. He continues talking to them every night and takes transcriptions. They are weird messages bordering on love and light. The scientific facts that they discuss don’t really pan out.
        > A man meditates every day for 30 years, one day he phases out and goes to a place where beings talk to him about love and light
        > A guy dies, sees
        > A man takes a shit-ton of psychadelics, talks to little machine elves that tell him that try to teach him to make machines with his thoughts, he is told that time is cyclical. He comes back with an idea about the iChing and time and aligns it to the whole 2012 movement and despite him being super deep as shit, the idea is a flop and is ridiculed. Also, love and light.
        > A man sees glowing balls enter his home every night and when he touches them he gets an electric shock
        > Don Elkin (who worked with Carla Rueckert on the RA material) starts hypnotizing people and getting contactee-type messages (love and light, we want to help, time is meaningless, thought is everying, material realm is a manifestation of thought, etc.) from people who claim to be abductees. He tries to do the same thing with non-abductees and finds out it still works if they have touched an abductee… can sometimes continue a conversation he was having with the same alien being through a different hypnotized person
        > A man is on the second floor of a house and is approached by a giant wolf who talks to him through the window and a parrot thing? Some really weird shit.
        > A person writes an entire book with the same contactee-type messages that they channeled from an alien using a ouija board.
        > A man starts having out of body experiences spontaneously in his 50s and then starts methodically documenting all the other realms he goes to, giving them numbers instead of names. He meets a lot of other types of beings there.
        > A woman dies and meets some beings who takes her to a light and shows her a review of her life and then asks her if she wants to go back and before she has a chance she wakes up and then tells the doctors she floated up during the surgery and could see what was on top of the light ballast – a child’s sneaker. They check and she’s right.
        > Dolores Cannon starts hypnotizing people and taking them back into past lives accidentally, some of which where the people are aliens, and they report contactee-type messages (love and light, time is meaningless, thought is everything, manifestation, etc.) and she can remove the person and talk directly to their subconscious/superconscious — but then she finds that she can talk through a different patient and speak to the same entity, continuing the conversation from where she left off before. She talks someone back who says they are

        ITS INSANE how bizarre it all is, if even a fraction of it is true it is still insane. And the experiences are as varied as people are. Much of it is fake (appearances are often faked, details are faked, facts might not be true), but the messages keep appearing over and over: it is not just the physical dimension, we are all in thought, we manifest what we think (which is true even if you’re a materialist, get over it!), and love and light. It’s almost as if we exist in thought and something is trying to trigger us to evolve. Awaken? I know you hate that too. Enlightenment is not a destination, it is a process of continuing to blossom. I am “awake” in that I know I can’t trust anything anymore. My beliefs are no longer calcified. I am completely malleable. There is a disorder that conservatives suffer from called “uncertainty avoidance” — they make the world black and white because they can’t STAND IT when something doesn’t have an answer or a judgment they can lay on it. Funny that hating the uncertainty of the UFO mystery lead me to where I am now (a mental blob who admits he knows nothing about nothing except that anything is possible), but there are all these other paths: hypnosis, new agey stuff, drugs, near death, out of body, synchronicities — it all leads to the same place. All the searching leads home. To interconnectedness. Mind, body, universe, we’re all one, love and light. As I said, I know it intellectually. (But between you and me, I was hanging out with some folks and they talked about tarot — which I also could believe as a prompting by the interconnectedness/syncness/intelligence — and about the astrological thing that was approaching — which I also could believe in part, but also could discard just as easily. I must admit I was internally rolling my eyes, I can’t help it! But like the whole 2012 thing I got so excited because people were manifesting together. We were synchronizing patterns of idea. It was cool. It also ended in crushing disappointment for many, boo, but also left a strong longing for more.)

        You smack the new age then talk about energy and love in the same breath. It’s amusing. As the alien doth provoke, so do I when called upon. And now I retreat back into the darkness.

      • oop, sorry about the loose threads.

        ok, i was just musing to myself, “hey, you admitted that you get a knee-jerk eye roll, so what’s the difference between that and what Jeremy does?” and the difference is — ego and love. You think yourself better than them, I don’t think I do necessarily. And I still love them like a parent loves a kid who thinks that they can talk to fish. And maybe they CAN talk to fish, what do I know?

  8. Again, simple answer: Bullshit and truth share a common language. Real wisdom gets bastardized by people who speak the language but haven’t the experience (or the wisdom) to really get it. I rail against the issues wherein I can tell the difference. However, you’re correct in that nobody listening to me or reading this can ultimately know that this is true of me. I could be lying or delusional or just an egomaniac.

    You’re also right that no one can say what another person’s experience is with 100% accuracy. But when folks become public figures, it is fair to estimate based on what they offer. If they offer no genetic testing or wisdom or knowledge beyond a normal human yet claim to be nonhuman… fair guess that they are 100% incorrect. If a woman raised at a time when women are breaking through the patriarchy and developing their voice culturally and politically starts channeling a male entity who sounds suspiciously like a product of her times and speaks the “You create your own reality” stuff in a way and to a people raised within a culture that believes in rugged individualism and capitalism/accumulation… Yeah, it’s fair to say this is not deep knowledge being shared. We cannot say if she’s lying or really believes she’s channeling. But we can say that odds are pretty good that she at least believes she’s channeling but is unconsciously free-style philosophizing in a way that is empowering. And I can say, whether you can or not and whether you believe me or not, that the philosophy isn’t deep. This isn’t to say that there isn’t a truth behind the words “we create our own reality,” it’s to say that Seth’s version does not hit that truth. Same words, different depth of meaning.

    For my part, I’ve written Urgency. If you’re looking for a reading list that acts more like a depth chart, I’ll do a post to flesh these out, but I recommend Jiddu Krishnamurti. Ken Wilber. Buddha, Peter Kingsley, Tiokasin Ghosthorse, and… gee, these are all men. I wonder what it would take for a woman to break through that and be heard? Maybe channeling a man?

    But seriously, the thing that bothers you is that you find Seth deep. And here I am telling you it’s not. And so that means you’re not as deep as you think. But you can’t have that because it feels like a judgment and one in which you are the lesser. No, I just understand what you’re talking about AND I understand something you don’t get (yet.) Imagine if Meister Eckhart were talking Christianity to a member of the Inquisition. He’d probably have the good sense to hide his depth of wisdom, his breakthrough experiences, because the other guy would say, “We’re both Christians. We both memorized the same bible. How dare you think you understand something of it beyond me, you egotistical prick!” And so poor old Meister would be alone with his knowledge or form a secret lodge of like-experienced folk. Me? I don’t do that. Ain’t nobody gonna wake up if they’re coddled and allowed to believe that everything that appeals to them has the same depth as everything else.

    And yet, we circle back around to the original problem: How can you know that about me? Here I am using “me” and “I” and speaking of myself as one with wisdom. That’s a sure sign I’m Greer-ing you, right?

    You know what I mean by that because you know there is a difference between me and Greer. You DO trust me. I doubt you trust him. There’s a reason for it. Go with that. Stop feeling persecuted every time I speak out about something that gives you the warm fuzzies. If that works for you, GREAT!!! But it holds no meaning for me. I see through it. You don’t. These are simply facts, not judgments. I am sure there are things I don’t see through to which I am shallow. I’m fine with that. It’s just fucking life, man.

    Some things are not equal in ufology as in life. How we parse that out when it moves beyond facts is a personal call. It sounds like you never want to make that call. I’d rather risk being wrong than read another book on UFO crashes. Or entertain anything Barbara Lamb has to say.

  9. The post should have been about how Seth is crap and Krishnamurti is deeper or something like that. This is like a superman vs batman thing.

  10. jayvay: Your whole premise is absurd. You’re attempting to proclaim what is and isn’t “fact” in an area which is essentially philosophy/metaphysical in nature. Although, you now seem to be backing away from Seth espoused “crap” to he’s not “deep” enough. You also suggest that the material is strictly a byproduct of a female’s fertile mind which was exclusively shaped by a male dominated society. In short, more victimization from you.

    Just as black American’s can’t improve their lives because of modern day white racism, so too, Jane Roberts was fundamentally lacking in agency to honestly channel wisdom on her own. We must leave that to the Buddha as you state. In your mind, discussing karma is only allowed in the context of your pre-approved, biased context. Never mind that Siddhartha’s circumstances provided the optimal fertile forum which enabled him to develop his opportunistic philosophy…that’s was different.

    The “fact” is: A lot of people have come to find their spiritual path by reading the Seth material. The “fact” that you get bent out of shape over that reveals more about you than it does about any transcendental truth that may exist. You are behaving like an emotional Fundamentalist, desperately trying to convert the unfortunate heathens to see Your truth. Instead of discussing the relevant issues pertaining to karma and other topics brought up by Seth (or Jane), you go off on silly, condescending rants. You’re like a petulant child who doesn’t get their way, taking your toys and stomping away. Not without a lot finger-wagging at us plebeian’s first, though. That’s fine. Keep in mind, however, you haven’t made a coherent argument except to offer your vapid speculations. All that shows is how you feel, nothing else.

    • No, Jeff, I’m not espousing that what Seth is saying is crap. That would be silly, as there is no Seth. Thanks, by the way, for bravely coming back with your two more cents after I said I’m out.

      My best guess as to why Jane would “become” Seth is just that: a guess. But ultimately it doesn’t matter what the reason is. The “we create our reality” philosophy IS NOT DEEP. Doesn’t mean there isn’t an element of truth to it. But then, “Seth” isn’t the first to have said as much, right?

      My GUESS is, this is the New Age version of free-style rap or free-style poetry. Sometimes it hits a mark. Sometimes it’s gobblety-gook. Now ask yourself what’s attractive about creating your own reality? I mean, beyond whether there’s a kernel of truth to it or not. Is it that the self gets to be in charge and accumulate shit at his/her whim? Is it self-control? Is it reality-mastery? Why yes. Yes, it is.

      And do you think this “deep” philosophy just accidentally appeals to a pull-yourself-up-by-the-bootstraps consumer/capitalist domination culture? Why, no. No, it doesn’t. It’s an expression of the culture we live in that appeals to those who, while trying to transcend said culture, have repressed it and here it is popping up this way. Five bucks says you know a lot of people who claim to loathe materialism and the accumulation of stuff for stuff’s sake… who then pay for meditation and other retreats that promise results like realizing your own god-hood, that don’t deliver. But it feels good to spend money on those retreats because we’re a spend-money kinda culture. I digress….

      The reason for this post is that there are numerous people who tell me I must read the Seth books because they’re life-altering. And I have. And they’re not. Not for me. But they cling to it like it’s a universal and I’m just not getting it. Who’s the fundamentalist in the room?

      Fine. To each their own. Now do me a favor and go out there and change the world. It’s looking juuuuust shy of apocalyptic out there. We could really use some reality creating about now. If you’ve got the power, use it. If not… what are you defending? Oh, that’s right. This can’t really affect anyone else. You’re creating YOUR reality.

      And here we are the center of universe again. Go us!

  11. Letters… We get letters…..

    Name: Debi-Laughing Wombat

    Comment: HI Jay,

    Was trying to post this but it isn’t working. Maybe you can help. Did I make it to long ?

    Jay,I appreciate your candidness and find it refreshing. Around 8 years ago my dad tried to get me to read a Seth book, I had already read thou who shant be named channeled book and said well the info all makes sense. but it seems she is pretending to channel, it is crap & a turn off. He kept going on, it got heated so I finally threw the book at him, left and we did not speak for a month. Interesting enough though I found out later that the reason I had so much resistance was because there was energy there that was very relevant to my personal life path. These days I understand that if it is not personally relevant generally there is no strong (reaction) from me positive or negative behind it. This has really helped me identify some of my core issues on my path to self discovery. Little cookies (clues) left behind for me to follow the feeling through so I can see where it is coming from, as first & foremost my energy of hate and disgust gets filtered directly through me, & why on earth would I want that kind of garbage running through my system ? for me that is the real crap LOL. I’m not speaking of preference here as that carries a different feeling & vibration all together.

    For me once I actually picked up and read Seth Speaks (aside from reading janes notes which I bypass) I couldn’t tear through all of the books fast enough, deep inside my heart & soul I knew what he was saying was my truth. I could feel it all the way down to my bones & the core of my being, so after that i didn’t give a poop where the information was coming from becasue it helped awaken me to knowing more of who I am, to love myself & my world more unconditionally. My entire life id been seeking, questioning and have not resonated with only following a particle book, path, teacher, spirituality or what have you. I trust myself and my instincts and generally do, so with deeper information Iv let my heart guide me instead of my head. I read later Seth talking about ALL deeper answers comes from within, iv always known that so this is probably why.

    For a while I felt the need to bash other chalnnels as fakes & honeslty some are corny as X%$#@.I fell on the floor laughing trying to listen to janes down syndrome type speech & still do.
    -but it wasnt until i relaized that ALL information is valid. that I could embrace allowence of everything.

    Truthfully the only reason I had a probelm with channeling anyway, is becasue I question everything, can be a skeptic had not awakend to the fact yet that there is so much more to the real me then what I was perceiving at my current state. Just like if you told me at 18 id be as old as I am right now id still be alive & happy. I would have laughed in your face at the idea, as I was of the perspective that past 30 your moldy oldy and was happily expecting id be gone by then !

    I wouldn’t understand when some family and friends didn’t have the exact same experience to Seth as me, but as Seth would say if you feel the need to push me on others then your clearly not understanding the information yourself HA.

    obviously since we are all wired differently & have different resistance, then we all have different ways of receiving & perceiving information. Some people in my life really just don’t resonate with seth delivery, just as i don’t resonate with information that beats around the bush or comes to softly lol. But I believe all circuitry is useful at different times for different things for different applications.

    I do think the way Seth went about writing his books through Jane is pure genius, in a way that the people reading must listen with not only a open mind but a open heart & learn to trust themselves or be co-fused

    I have thought a lot of what with-in means and for me it is truly trusting my heart, when I am doing that everything seems possible. I think because source energy, the one or whatever term anyone wants to use is just LOVE- we get a direct pathway to source by passing all of the low frequency resistors (self judgment) (hate) (pain) (trust), sort of like a bypass capacitor haha

    ALL of us KNOW somewhere deep in our hearts we are more then just this physical meat suit we pretend to be, and are wired to have that direct source connection- but choosing to come from so much forgetfulness, mistrust of self and fear of the unknown its no wonder it’s become such a challenge for us to awaken. Thankfully I found Seth before I ever did my first Yage which have made my journeys that much easier to navigate and Iv found everything he said about why we exist here & how it works in non physical (below) to be exact my experience, same without the Yage in lucid dreams

    “The human race is a stage though which various forms of consciousness travel. Before you can be allowed into systems of reality that are more extensive and open, you must first learn to handle energy and see, through physical materialization, the concrete result of thought and emotion.”

    “In more advanced systems, thoughts, and emotions are automatically and immediately translated into action, into whatever approximation of matter there exists. Therefore, the lessons must be taught and learned well. The responsibility for creation must be clearly understood.”

    The Yage medicine path is my path & I can tell you for me the Seth info goes hand in hand with what Iv learned on my journeys (for me anyway). Even in those realms the same principles apply what you put out is what you get back it “really” shows you that LOL. My last journey I wondered how I could feel like the wisest being & stupidest being on planet earth all at the same time lol. I like many others have had the most mind blowing un-believable experiences ones that giving words to wouldn’t even give justice to. Does this make me a expert absolutely NOT because even after all these mind blowing experiences and knowledge you think you’ve gained, the biggest joke of all is I truly truly know how little I actually do know. I am not saying this out of humility either & it actually makes me laugh hysterically every time I think of it. I am good with how much I don’t know. Who cares anyway we have forever. To me the diversity of us all and the challenge is what makes it all exciting. I love the process, I love the journey, so for me that is the point. IM not trying to get somewhere anyway. so I may as well enjoy the never ending ride :)and make it as fun and exciting as I possible can.

    As far as Ecuador & the oil companies iv been there and have experienced it personally. Is it tragic YES and I am not speaking for all the tribes & everyone but the Secoya philosophy and medicine is PURE UNCONDITIONAL LOVE. This is their message and goal for planet earth. I won’t pretend I know exactly why or how to explain it from their point of view so wouldn’t even try, but I will say there are beings on this planet human & non human that specifically come here to experience things to show us a direct ugly reflection of what we are doing to ourselves and earth. It is no accident that one of the most beautiful plants on Gaia is allowing us to believe we are destroying her in that way.. Teachers teach and will give the lessons anyway necessary so we can learn. Lastly I want to thank you. I was looking up Seth info (which I always go back to ) and came across this blog. I generally don’t feel excited to join conversations like this, but since you brought up two of my favorite teachers Seth & Ecuador I decided to take the plunge. My intent is definitely not to change your mind, just I have been going through some challenges lately and your post and writing this out has really helped me. Seth has a funny way of working like that for me. l So thank you from the bottom of my heart for your honesty. Who knows maybe your a Sethie at heart (ducking the poo being thrown my way) bhwhahahahah xoxoxoox

    I found something I had never read when Seth was talking to a Pat Bostons high school class back in March25, 1967. I thought it was a really cool explanation to 16 year olds….

    Now, dear friends, there is never any justification for war, and there is never any justification for killing. It is true that basically there is no death, but this can not be used as an excuse within your sense-system. You have created death within your system. Since you have created it you are left to deal with it. As long as you believe that a bullet can kill a man, then it behooves you not to kill. When you realize that a bullet can not kill a man, then you will not NEED to kill.

    All of you have lived before, and many of you will live in physical form again. Some of you will be finished with earthly reincarnations after this life. There is a boy in a third or fourth seat, back from the front in the left row, toward the wall. He is on the last reincarnation within this system.

    All of you have but one responsibility, and that responsibility is to the self. Not necessarily to the self as you know it but to the whole self. It is your responsibility, you see, to develop all your abilities. It is your responsibility to materialize within your own system your own potentials.

    I am no beady-eyed spirit. I am no granddaddy long-legs of the spirit world. I have simply lived before within your system and on your planet. Unless you have read the material, it does me little good to go deeply into any specific problems or questions, since you will not have the background for this.

    The only message I can give you clearly is that you must develop your own abilities. You must probe into the intuitive self, for you will find much knowledge there. Books will help you, but the greater knowledge is buried within the layers of the self. You all have abilities, and you all have liabilities. Both of these come from past experiences in other lives. The inner portions of your personality know the details of your past lives. The abilities that you have now have been developed in past lives. Those problems which you can not solve on a psychic and mental level, you will have to solve in the physical system.

    You will have to work out these problems in sense data. That is why the abilities within your system are still working within the systems of war. There is no heaven and hell in Christian terms. However, if a personality believes strongly in the reality of hell, for some time after death he will experience the hallucination of a hell which will be of his own creation.

    This will last very briefly. Heaven and hell, indeed, are mere representations. They represented, originally, intuitive insights. But no heaven or hell exist in those terms. There is no place within the universe or within any universe or system for them. You create reality according to your beliefs and expectations. Therefore, it behooves you to examine your beliefs and expectations very carefully.

    Your lives at this point are the results of your own inner expectations. If you do not like your lives, then examine your expectations. Your future lives will be the result of your own expectations again. Change these expectations now if need be.

    Every thought in one way or another is constructed by you in physical terms. You can not escape the result of one thought. Every thought is an actuality. It affects every action and it forms your physical environment. As you sit listening to my voice, you are all subconsciously forming the physical environment of your classroom. You are forming the physical chairs. You are forming the blackboard. You are all forming reality, as you know it. Then with your physical senses, you are perceiving that which you have already so created.

    If you do not like what you see, then who is to blame? For these are your own constructions, formed in faithful replica to your own thoughts. We do not have the time to explain now how this is done, but in the material we have explained it. Certain telepathic connections exist which are what we term root assumptions, of which you are all telepathically aware. Using these you form a physical environment that is cohesive enough so that you can all agree with what you see and feel and smell and touch.

    It is all in one respect hallucinatory, and yet it is your reality and you must deal with it. If you do not like the looks of the adult world, then you had better change your own expectations now. The world in which your parents live is a world which they created. It existed first in thought. It existed first in mental realms. It existed first as the stuff of dreams, and from this they spawned their universe, and from this they made their world.

    It is the world in which you now will live, and if you will not face their problems, if you can not solve their dilemma, it will be not their fault but your own. For you also have a hand in this. Every generation sits by.

    The young generation sits by, apparently helpless while the parents rule the world. But the young helpless ones mature, and they grow and they become parents. They become adults, but what about their world?

    What changes do they make? How many of them, after criticizing their elders, look inward into their own hearts? How many demand that they use their own potentials? How many demand the best of themselves? And it is this that you must do. Anything less is disaster. The exploration of inner space – this is your mission. It will lead you into more exciting realms than any you can imagine. It will literally reshape and remake your world. If you see but one item within your universe and it disgusts you, then look within yourself, for you have helped create it.

    You can change it in physical terms if you will. But no real change will be effected, for it will spring up again in new form. Any true progress is mental progress. You must change ideas if you would change the world. If you would end war, you must change yourself. It is the idea of war, then that you must fight.

    You will find exactly what you wish to find. You will make of your lives exactly what you expect to make of your lives. The beauties that exist in your physical universe are the results of constructive and positive thought. The ugliness is a direct result of negative thought.

    How many of you are ill? How many of your parents are ill? The illness is a physical materialization of an inner illness. You can rid yourself of the physical symptom perhaps, by taking medicine, but the illness will break out again and again. You can only rid yourself of such a condition by discovering the inner reason for it, by discovering the inner illness. And there are various ways of doing this.

    Many of these we have discussed in our sessions, and there is no time now to tell you. Look where nothing seems to be, for no place is truly empty. Where there appears to be nothing, there will be no distortion. Within that seeming nothingness, reality can show itself if you know how to look. That which appears full, that space which appears full, is misleading, for reality is already given to a rigid form.

    Anything that you can see and feel and touch exists within your own reality, yes, and within it, it is legitimate and valid. It is also highly distorted, for your physical senses are lovely liars that betray you constantly. They form reality for you, and yet the reality that they form is highly distorted, and what you see, dear friends, does not exist and you do not see what does exist.

    I regret the little time that I have to speak to you. I regret also the necessary limitations put upon me by this method of communication. Nevertheless I speak to you in terms of fondest affection. The voice which we must necessarily use it unfortunately, devoid now of humor, and yet I am indeed a man of humor. I give you all indeed my blessing, for I do have blessings to give. Look around you at your surroundings. Look within your surroundings. Do not trust what you see.

    I am still addressing you students. You are all older than you know. There is knowledge within you that you do not realize that you possess, and you can all use this knowledge. You may think that you are 16 years old. You may think that you have existed for a certain period of years. You may think that before that time you knew nothing. You may look back to a time and remember no identity, and you wonder: Who was I then, and how did I come here?

    And yet a portion of you knows the answer, and a portion of you knows who you are, and the memories of your previous lives are not in your genes or in your chromosomes, but in the psychic reality that forms the genes and the chromosomes. For the identity is a different identity than the name that you bear. The physical mechanism has chromosomes indeed, but the physical chromosomes have a psychic counterpart, and the psychic counterpart is the original; and within you is the codified information containing all your past lives and all your knowledge, and it is hidden so deep within you the subconscious as you know it does not realize the truth, for the subconscious as you know it is, indeed, a very shallow affair containing only those hidden memories from this life.

    But beyond this life and before this life and forming this life there are identities and there are realities and these are not dead. Identity as experience is intimate. It is a psychic reality but it exists electromagnetically.

    Identity, the self that you are, is made up of the selves that you were and, my dear friends, the selves that you shall be. The selves that you were still exist. The selves that you shall be already exist. The lives that you have lived, in your terms, are still being lived. There is no past, present, or future.

    Time, as you know it, is a distortion brought about by the operation of the physical senses. Direct experience has no need of physical time. You exist now, period. The past, the present, and the future as you know them are illusion, and yet they exist now. You can influence the past today; you can have memory of the future.

    You can draw upon the knowledge of the future today. You can change the past tomorrow. Your time is valid only within your system, and it is not particularly valid within your system. The dreams that you dream are as real as the classroom in which you sit. The dreams that you dream form your today.

    You are, in some respects, more awake when you sleep than you are when you sit in your classroom and listen to my voice. Your dreams appear as illusion to your normal waking self. Shall I tell you how your normal waking experiences appear to your dreaming self? Shall I tell you which of the two realities are more valid and which is least distorted? Shall I tell you where your abilities do originate?

    Do you think your abilities originate with the self that sits in the classroom? What does your inner identity have to do with the self that brushes your teeth? Yet surely you are wide awake when you brush your teeth, and when you dream surely you will say you are sleeping and your consciousness is dead.

    How dead is sleeping consciousness, and where do you travel when you sleep? How many miles do you cover in a day? How many miles do you cover in a dream? How many things do you learn in a dream? You learn more things in a dream than you learn in this classroom. You learn your identity in a dream state. You have experiences even while you dream that are more real and more valid than any that you have while your eyes are wide open.

    This does not mean that you must not manipulate within the physical universe. I am not telling you that you should forget your responsibilities in physical life. I am telling you that the origin and ability and power and identity has its origins deep within the personality, and that these origins have little to do with the waking self of which your are all so familiar.

    The self that sits in class is not the self that wonders in a dream state, and the self that wonders in a dream state is, my dear friends, far more educated than the self that sits in the classroom. The self you call yourself, what does it know? To whom must it listen? The self that you call yourself knows relatively little. It is perhaps 16 years old. Indeed, the inner identity knows, and the inner identity knows that it knows. All of you are on a threshold. Uncounted millions have been at that threshold.

    If you sell yourselves (out), this is what you will do. You will say, I am a physical organism, and I live within the boundaries cast upon me by space and time. I am at the mercy of my environment. If you do not sell yourselves (out), you will say, I am an individual. I form my physical environment. I change, and I make my world. I am free of space and time. I am part of (a) good mind. I am more than I know that I am, and there is no place within me that creativity does not exist. I will form the physical universe according to the picture that exists within my mind. I can not kill, for there is only life, and life can not be killed.

    Those of you who would change your world, then I tell you, listen: for if you would change your world you must listen to the voice within yourself. You must examine your own dreams. You must inspect the innermost portions of yourself, and from this indeed shall you be resurrected.

    For the thought shall seed the world and the world shall seed the universe. The cowering soul is, indeed, the soul who believes himself a physical being. He is, therefore, at the mercy of every physical camouflage. He does not realize that he is what he is. He must live in the world he has created, and it is a miserable and cruel world.

    The human personality is free. Any limitations are those created by itself. If you will not be limited, then do not create artificial limitations. If you would see through space and time, then do not give any validity to the distortions of space and time. You can hardly follow your dreams while you consider your dreams hallucinations. You can hardly grow into your full potential if you think you are a physical creature bounded and limited by the physical limitations of time and space, soon to fall corrupted into an early and filthy grave.
    If you think that is what you are, then for all practical purposes, FOR NOW, that is what you shall be. If you realize on the other hand that you are unlimited, that you are a part of All That Is, then indeed it shall be so as it is.

    Shatter, then, these artificial boundaries that you have set upon yourselves, and that you have accepted from others. If you are to grow older within your system, then mature within it. Do not grow old into senility. Grow into wisdom, for the wisdom is already within you.

    The self that you shall be already exists. If you will realize your potential then you will find it is already accomplished.

    And now I give you my good evenings and my blessings, and say good evening again to you all.

    Seth – Roberts Center (1967.03.25 (329: ES7)

  12. “No, Jeff, I’m not espousing that what Seth is saying is crap. That would be silly, as there is no Seth.”
    — jayvay

    There you go again proclaiming what is “fact” without providing any supporting evidence. You don’t know that Seth doesn’t exist…that’s just your opinion. In any event, that’s not the point and you know it. You’re just being obtuse. You stated that the Seth material is “crap”. However, as I previously pointed out, you walked that back to say that the material isn’t “deep” enough. You actually reiterated it again in your last post: “IS NOT DEEP”. Although, after having restated it in capitol letters, you subsequently muddied the waters further by later suggesting it’s “gobblety-gook”. As I said earlier, you’re not being coherent.

    As far as changing the world is concerned, don’t be so quick to dismiss ideas that pertain to how individuals (and systems) are interconnected. It’s obvious you don’t have an open mind in that that area so I won’t bother having a discussion with you on it in this post. It’s my experience that people who make unfounded proclamations are not objective enough to sustain a substantive dialog without resorting to committing copious fallacies, including ad homenum. Having said that, however, I’m willing to give it a try depending on your response (if any).

    Another thing: While I agree with your politics, it’s not the universal prism with which to see everything through. The reason I say this is because you’re attempting to link metaphysical ideas as being a manifestation of bourgeois sensibilities. Keep in mind that, where it exists, correlation doesn’t necessarily imply causation. You need evidence to make those connections. Otherwise, it’s just speculation; which is what you’re engaging in.

    • “There you go again proclaiming what is ‘fact’ without providing any supporting evidence.” – And that was written in response to you who started out by saying Seth espoused something. So, you’re also starting out with a fact–that Seth is real.

      I’m going to let what I wrote stand for anyone who knows how to read. I do not accept your criticisms, I just don’t feel like writing long back-and-forths for the rest of my life explaining what is already written again and again.

      You’ve got the rules of evidence backwards. I don’t need evidence; Jane Roberts does. She’s the one making the extraordinary claims. And what she has given as evidence is not extraordinary. It ranges between ordinary and less than ordinary. If you get something from it, wonderful. If someone thinks a person claiming to be an alien hybrid is a nice person, wonderful. If anyone thinks a dude with a model UFO on string has a cool philosophy handed to him by Pleiadians, wonderful. If someone looking at airplanes and satellites believes they are communing with aliens and feels some joy from that, wonderful.

      But please stop asking me to investigate it or take it as seriously as they do or provide evidence against what is self-evident. Life is too short. If you don’t know that these things are self-evident then I’m not con-descending, I’m just descending. And giving you wisdom: Don’t take any wooden nickels.

      You’re welcome.

      Maybe in another life I’ll tell you what you want to hear and take your money. Or be more agreeable to get along. In this one, I don’t do that. If it sounds arrogant or wrong somehow, then so be it. This is like pointing out how God didn’t write the bible to those who believe otherwise because it’s riddled with mortal error and historical/political context. “Yeah, but….!”

      No. No “Yeah, but.” That’s the end.

      • I was discussing the material that was attributed to Seth. I never proclaimed that he was real. Again, that’s wasn’t the topic of your original post anyway. Your topic was that the material was “crap”, which is what I responded to and addressed specifically. This is evident to anyone who reads the thread. Your proclamation that Seth doesn’t exist was subsequent to that conversation. The validity of Seth’s existence was not being discussed at the time. All you did was move the goal posts to deflect from our initial debate, like you just did when you moved the posts from “changing personal reality” to “changing the world”. And yes, if you claim that Seth is not real, then you need to provide evidence…otherwise, your just stating your opinion. In other words, you’re pretending to know something that you really don’t. Also, I never “asked” you to do anything — all I’m doing is pointing out your copious fallacies

  13. “When I was young, I admired clever people. Now that I am old, I admire kind people.” – Rabbi Abraham Joshua Heschel

    I just read all of your posts, from top to bottom, and I want to thank all of you. Wonderful stuff. Thank you Jeff and Melissa. Thank you Jeremy for initiating this conversation and for posting Debi-Laughing Wombat even though it was a contrary opinion to yours. Just hearing the tone in the Seth-readers shows that it has made profound changes in their psyches, no matter where the information came from.

    Reading that Seth passage brought it all back. It projects the feeling of being interconnected and a part of something larger. It is hope. That’s what you take away from it if nothing else. Even a materialist can see that the way we think about the world and ourselves shapes the outcome. Did native people have the concept of homelessness and poverty? (They do now, thanks whitey!)

    Just a reminder that Jeremy dismissed Krishnamurti when he first read him. He thought it was word salad garbage. (Hell, I didn’t like my first Elvis Costello CD until I loved it.) Krishnamurti, to me, is like the atheist’s spirituality (he would disagree because atheism is a belief system; maybe a materialist/realist spirituality would be more apt?) — what his talent is, is creating a framework of discussion (I can’t call it “belief”) that is unassailable by skeptics, which is perhaps what Jer admires as he’s been an internet warrior for a long long time. The thing is, it is as much a spiritual trap as it is a protective fortress. To expand you have to be somewhat vulnerable, you have to surrender – it’s like love in that way.

    Love to all of you. Be well.

  14. Hi to those of you still checking in on the Seth thread. I was done with it and thought I had nothing to say anymore but I guess it has been on my mind and I recently watched an interview with Barry Gellis who was one of the people going on Tuesday nights to Jane and Roberts living room to listen to Seth for quite a long time. He did eventually stop going and chose to find answers within himself (Seth never wanted people to follow him but learn how to follow themselves). Barrie is very knowledgeable about what Seth said and is really great to listen to. What a wonderfully open and thoughtful person. I really enjoyed listening to him. The main message I took from him about Seth is humans are naturally good and have the ability to self reflect and feel guilt if what they are doing is wrong. Think about that. Then think about …What would happen in the world if we each believed ourselves to be good and believed that everyone is essentially good and everyone has a place in the world to reach their potential and to be? Good is the natural state of a human being and acting otherwise is moving away from the natural state. I was happy to hear him talk about that I have thought on this many times when I see terrorist acts or people acting against their own self interest. I think many times people think they are good themselves but other people are bad and so we have to protect ourselves against the bad people. Or the stupid people as some folks would have bad=stupid. I am in the US where we are in the thick of a ridiculous presidential campaign that I guess is reflective of what we are. We have become so distanced from each other that we don’t understand that essentially we are all the same.

    I think at this statement someone who feels offended at that will bring up Hitler or something and I will just say Hitler thought he was good and in doing evil things he went far afield from his natural state and was able to achieve such a giant monstrous outcome because other people joined him in his fucked up-ness. If no one had done it with him, it would not have happened. If people had not got swept up in the us vs them mentality it would have gone no where. But I dont want to provoke here and get anyone in a whirl of feeling annoyed, I mainly wanted to offer up this youtube about Seth for those folks who might enjoy it. So Jeremey feel free to ignore this because it is probably not something you will like and I dont want to provoke you but I think maybe other people posting on this thread might enjoy. So in the spirit of sharing a positive thing….check it out of you feel inclined. 🙂

    • Thanks for sharing Melissa. I’m 1:52:45 in. I have to say that this video turned me around on the whole subject. I still think the Seth works are an awesome collection of thought forms that certainly expanded the way I think about things and it seems to alter the other people it touches — ripples of expanded ways of thinking that have affected writers, directors, and inspired a lot of people to question their standard narrative since they were published. Barrie Gellis is awesome and he seems so evolved in the way he thinks and gruffly cuts through the new agey bullshit and panting egoic spotlight hunting from the interviewer, or whatever weird vibe that was. It’s uncomfortable to watch for me, but then Barrie swoops in like the Neil deGrasse Tyson of channelology and gets real, “well… yeah… that’s obvious.” I think what makes Barrie immune to bullshit is that he never had that much desire to go after answers in the first place, he’s just like, “well this is interesting…” He’s also older. I like how they talk about where Jane Roberts started with a Ouija board and then mediumship and continually tested everything to see if Seth was real. I’d love to see those tapes/read the documentation (I honestly can’t stand to hear Jane do Seth, it’s so grating. It must of been a hell of a thing to be in the room during group though.)

      Anywhere, where it turned me around is not on my opinion on Seth, it’s on my opinion on Jeremy. I don’t want him going anywhere near the New Age if it would make him as annoying as that interviewer. No thoughts shall be masters I say. A grumpy cynical laughing Buddha works for me.

      • I’m glad you watched KindaGamey. I think Barrie is really good at listening and keeping a good sense of humor. I can see why you found the interviewer irritating I should have issued a warning but he did try to hear what Barrie was saying and I credit him that. I felt like that fellow was just young and trying hard to find answers as you point out. Better to just explore the questions.

        I would listen to Barrie do more interviews for sure. He is a smart fellow with a lot to say.I would love to hear Whitley interview him. I think they would really hit it off.

    • The new age movement is an indirect way of promoting individualism. I don’t know if Seth is real but I do know that poverty, homelessness and senseless violence are real. These social problems are caused by govt policies which promote inequality. Therefore, govt policies created “this reality”, not the poor and homeless.

      They do not deserve to be on the streets due to “bad karma”, they were put there deliberately by ruthless, selfish, power-hungry people who no longer had any “material” use for them and also are not interested in helping them. Seth is not going to help these people! However, a truly spiritual person would at least try to help them. Do you know anyone like that?

      • “The new age movement is an indirect way of promoting individualism.”

        False. Spiritual evolution is the development of the capacity individuals to see the spirit in another and to recognize oneself. In other words, the “new age movement” is founded in the cultivation of true empathy. You are attempting to distort genuine spiritual quest to score political points. While your assessment of government may be correct, it neglects to take into account that policies are enacted by people. Those people are derelict in that they exploit individuals and nations by Othering them. It is the antithesis of the new age movement.

        While it’s necessary to foster awareness in order rise up against injustice to alleviate suffering, it’s just as important to fully come to terms with the power inherent in individuals to change their destiny if they so choose. Changing personal reality is the central theme of the Seth material. While obstacles are in everyone’s path, the degree to which these can be overcome is primarily dependent on the individual’s belief system. To deny this is to deny that a person caught up in a negative circumstance has the power to get themselves out. While it may be satisfying to you, you’re not “helping” anyone by telling them they lack agency and are at the mercy of their government.

      • Seth Material, as with most New Age schtick, appeals to White privilege. Mull that over before answering otherwise.

        As to this: “Spiritual evolution is the development of the capacity individuals to see the spirit in another and to recognize oneself.” — The only people who are just now waking up to this are Westerners. The culture that tried to kill off all the “pagan” and “satanic” and “savage” and “lesser” cultures. Turns out we’re the child in the room who needs to “evolve.” So let’s not paint all of humanity with one brush and pretend that a New Age movement is one of humanity FINALLY attaining empathy. (Now that I think of it, a little-known prophet named “Jesus” may have had a thing or two to say on the subject a couple thousand years ago.)

        We don’t need disembodied people to teach us empathy or the truism that we play a role in changing our personal reality. Duh, is my answer to that. These are not spiritually-evolved ideas. They’re no shit Sherlock ideas. You’re not helping anyone by pretending that you’re in control of reality when you have no clue what you are or what reality is.

        New Agers “other” people all the time. Like all diehard faithful who know deep down they are lying to themselves, they resent anyone who sees through their bullshit. We are judgmental and to be ignored because we’re giving off bad energy or negative vibes. No, we’re actually hitting the sore spot they’ve been covering over with inauthentic happy words and feelings and pseudo-empowerment. Truth is uncomfortable. So be it.

        None of this is about being a good or bad person, by the way. It’s about getting real with yourself and not pretending that this spiritual evolving is anything more than ego-fortification disguised as transcendence. The only reason to pick on the New Age over, say, the orthodox religious is that they believe they’re above it all. They get it. They’ve arrived.

        Blowhards, all. (Says the man who write this long-ass response. I know… I know….)

      • “Seth Material, as with most New Age schtick, appeals to White privilege. Mull that over before answering otherwise.”

        You sound like a Hillbot…you know, the ones that exploit sex/race against Sanders supporters for cheap political gain even though the demographics don’t support their claims. I wonder what percentage of people of color follow new age ideas? According to you it’s a much smaller percentage than that of white people. Do you have data on that? Of course not. You made it up because it conventionally serves as the foundation for your erroneous racist framework within which you can rage against the machine. Good for you for becoming politically aware. Get your facts right first though before you erase people of color from the multitude of those seeking spiritual development.

        “So let’s not paint all of humanity with one brush and pretend that a New Age movement is one of humanity FINALLY attaining empathy.”

        Neither I nor Seth claimed Western exclusivity so I’m not sure why you say that here.

        “They’re no shit Sherlock ideas.”

        The title to your piece is “It’s crap”. Have you forgotten? As I pointed out before, you are now back-pedaling and claiming they’re common sense ideas. Some are indeed commonsensical. However, a lot of his ideas were (are) revelatory to many people, which apparently pisses you off to no end. You might want to “mull that over”.

        “You’re not helping anyone by pretending that you’re in control of reality when you have no clue what you are or what reality is.”

        Are you seriously suggesting that people don’t can’t control their reality? You’re like the opposite of a motivational speaker: “Give up and stop trying to change your personal reality. Because white people.” Also, there is nothing BUT clues as to what reality is. It’s up to us to filter through the evidence and select that which makes the most sense. Your nihilism is striking…and profoundly ill informed.

        “It’s about getting real with yourself and not pretending that this spiritual evolving is anything more than ego-fortification disguised as transcendence.”

        That sentence is nothing but presumptuous sanctimonious drivel. Humans have been searching for answers/truth for eons. For you to jump in on 6/3/2016 and proclaim it’s been about ego all along is weak sauce to say the least. Ego-driven much?

      • Do you even know what you’re writing or is it a Madlib? If anyone reading this believes this is an accurate rebuttal to the words I’ve been writing here, do me a favor and come back in a few years after learning how to read. And I mean that in the “how to listen” sense not the “You’re illiterate and need to learn grade school language” way.

        This is the bigger problem in not just New Age but everything. We react so we can hear ourselves be “right” instead of what the other actually said.

      • Your meaning is unambiguous and my rebuttal is on target. Your juvenile “Madlib” and “learn how to read” response is the typical flavor of your commentary in general, i.e., ill informed and opinionated snark. You have a lot a bluster which you think suffices for a substantive discussion. When you’re called out on your “I know better than you” finger-wagging, rather than engage intelligently you flip the game-board in the air, disappointed that people aren’t unconditional swallowing your unsubstantiated opinions. Too bad.

      • As I said, you expressed your views unambiguously so there’s nothing to correct unless you want to change your mind or back-pedal some more.

      • I forgot this one:

        “New Agers “other” people all the time. Like all diehard faithful who know deep down they are lying to themselves, they resent anyone who sees through their bullshit. We are judgmental and to be ignored because we’re giving off bad energy or negative vibes. No, we’re actually hitting the sore spot they’ve been covering over with inauthentic happy words and feelings and pseudo-empowerment. Truth is uncomfortable. So be it.”
        — jayvay: June 3, 2016 at 10:02 pm

        Like your erroneous “white privileged” claim, you have no evidence to support the above assertions either. As with most of your commentary, you zealously spout high-minded vitriol thinking that it’s cogent and substantive. On what objective basis can you claim that? You don’t cite any because you have none. Your basis is your subjective bias. You obviously can’t cite that as objective so you foul the air with “hippie-punching” type rhetoric. How brave…and edgy too!

        You indulge yourself in the fallacy of Sweeping Generalization in an attempt to smear those who are on a spiritual path. You call it “bullshit” without any sort delineation as to what specifically you’re referring to and what the justification is. What part(s) of New Age is “bullshit”, jayvay? On what basis? Is it reincarnation? NDE? OBE? Telepathy? Channeling? Clairvoyance? Telekinesis? Kudalini? Something else? All of the above? According to you, anybody who claims to have had any of these experiences is full of shit.

        On what grounds can you credibly claim that any of these phenomenon don’t exist? All you have is your inane caricature of how you like to think of “New Agers”, couched in your racist social-justice-warrior terminology. You don’t even back-up your simple-minded (erroneous) correlations with any data whatsoever. You say “Truth is uncomfortable” yet you don’t substantiate what “truth” is, just your usual self-absorbed finger-wagging. The only “truth” you’ve established is that you’re are guilty believing in your own myths and spouting them as fact. Apparently you think the audience you direct your hypocritical rants at are just as unaware and uncritical as yourself.

      • To Jeff from great society.

        My criticisms of the “new age movement” (which includes its accompanying literature) are due mainly to its hyper-commercialization, which has divorced it from any true, genuine, spiritual purpose. All of the genuinely spiritual people throughout history have had one thing in common: they tried to help the most vulnerable and disempowered people in their societies. Eg, Jesus, Buddha, Gandhi, Mother Teresa, Martin Luther King and countless others who made enormous sacrifices in order to benefit the less fortunate. They were not interested in “get rich quick” schemes or appealing to a particular “target market” in order to gauge their profit potential.

        Truly spiritual people still do exist, but you won’t see them on the New York Times “Best sellers” list. They are humble and quietly go about their business of helping those in need, usually for low pay. They could be social workers, charity workers, volunteers who help out in homeless shelters or soup kitchens, as well as those who fight for justice for the wrongly convicted. (Of course there are many more examples). These people may not claim to be spiritual, but their actions speak far louder than their words. In the world of the spirit, “labels” don’t mean much.

        I do believe in (Eastern) spirituality and try to live according to spiritual principles as best as I can. I think the biggest issue here is how you “define” spirituality.The influence of Western Capitalism (together with individualism) has caused a profound change in the definition of spirituality in our society; it always seems to include a “prosperity element”. I’m not sure if Jesus or Buddha would agree with our “re-definition”.

      • Nobody likes a charlatan so you’re not alone in that sentiment. But that doesn’t mean everyone who writes a “new age” book is one just because some exist. It’s not a valid argument to suggest that because fraud exists in a given field that the field as a whole is corrupt and without any merit. It’s up to the reader to discern what’s “true” or not. Whether someone makes money on selling books on whatever topic isn’t a reliable litmus test as to whether that particular topic is presented in a factual manner. I personally don’t have a problem with people trying to make a living selling books. The fact that there’s apparently a large market for new age books means that there’s a correspondingly large demand for the material, which is a good thing (in my book). Should people not read any new age books because fraud exists? I don’t think so. Ideas are communicated in may ways, books are just one. To suggest that new age ideas shouldn’t be disseminated in book form for people to access the ideas contained therein doesn’t make sense.

        You say you believe in “Eastern spirituality”. How did you come to this knowledge…from books or maybe a guru? I’m sure you’re aware that their are those who exploit the title of “guru”. That doesn’t mean that ascendant masters don’t exist and that they can’t (or don’t) communicate their knowledge in book form. Guess which section of the bookstore you’ll find these books?

        Although books are an excellent vehicle to spread ideas, I think that nowadays people are getting more and more of their information from the internet. I know that’s true for me. With one exception, I’ve haven’t bought a new age book in years. The exception is I recently bought a book called “Biology of Kundalini”. It’s an excellent book by the way and I encourage everyone to get it. You can read it for free online or purchase the book in print form. I chose to buy the book mainly because I wanted to support the author, Jana Dixon.

        Your claim that “spiritual people” are only found in volunteer jobs isn’t true unless you define “spiritual people” exclusively as “those who give their time away to those less fortunate.” You mention Mother Theresa as being “spiritual”. You might want to check out Christopher Hitchens, “Ghoul of Calcutta”. I’m not saying I agree or disagree with Hitchens on this (he had his own issues), but it’s always worthwhile to educate oneself on what’s considered conventional wisdom. The bigger point is that we’re all “spiritual people”, not just a select group of historical figures. We have no choice in that regard. One can either recognize this and focus one’s energy in exploring what this means by studying new age philosophies/phenomenon or ignore that aspect of our being and remain asleep.

        I agree with your sentiments regarding western capitalism. However, as I stated previously, spiritual principles are rooted in empathy for others which is in direct opposition to the precepts of what’s traditionally been associated with western capitalism. I’m not sure if you’ve noticed but that traditional brand is rapidly growing disfavor in America and the world in general, especially among the youth. It blows me away that a democratic-socialist has a shot at becoming president of the U.S. This is a profound cultural/political turnaround and the meaning of this shouldn’t be minimized. It’s my feeling that we’re evolving towards a more moral framework. Whether we make it or not is another question.

        A lot of people dismiss the cultural/political revolution of the 60’s as being comprised of pot-heads and therefore inconsequential. In those days there was a lot of bonding between people with new ideas. A lot of those ideas were transcendental and utopian in nature and were easily mocked, hence the term “hippie-punching”. However, many of those ideas have percolated into the subsequent decades in ways that would take too long to explain here. Suffice it to say, however, a major component of that awakening was spiritual in nature, eastern philosophies in particular. The takeaway was that “we are all one” and that god and entire universe resides in the individual. That’s why I say that rather than define looking inward as being a selfish act, it is instead seeing the spirit in all.

        I’m not sure if you’ve done psychedelics or had kundalini activation, but within those experiences epiphanies can be obtained wherein what I described above is experienced first-hand and in your face. The unity of “all that is” suddenly becomes so obvious along with the realization it’s been that way forever. So intense is this understanding, it can produce uncontrollable fits of non-stop laughter; so much so it literally hurts. One comes to KNOW — not just believe — it is the way things truly are. We become better humans for accessing that “gestalt awareness” (Seth term). The way into that space is looking inward. Simultaneous with that journey is the realization that altruism is a redundancy because we’ll already know that what we do to others we do to ourselves, not just metaphorically speaking. Nothing but good can come of that type of individualism. No offense intended, but tying to conflate an individual’s spiritual quest with with greedy western capitalism is so far removed from reality I consider it to be oxymoronic.

      • I agree with a lot of your arguments. In my opinion, the 1960s symbolized a change in direction (socially and culturally) and a lot of this was influenced by Eastern philosophy, as much of the music of that decade can attest to. The major difference between the 60s and today is that back then the emphasis seemed to be on creating a feeling of “togetherness”, or social unity, in order to overcome problems such as racial injustice as well as being able to mobilize a critical mass against the Vietnam War. These movements were based on moral/spiritual principles (I believe) but they were expressed in a way which valued social unity above individualism. Perhaps that’s why they were relatively successful? I don’t believe that they were a complete success, but they were able to confront the power structure which led to significant institutional changes. Martin Luther King was an incredible individual, but he alone was not the “civil rights movement”. It required many people, equally as important, who were doing a lot of organizing in the background. I wouldn’t consider this movement a “homage” to any one individual, but rather a collective of courageous souls who sacrificed a lot of their time and energy towards improving the nation.

        Perhaps we disagree on our definition of “individualism”. I see it as a rather negative term that is associated with greed and selfishness, whereas “individuality” is a positive term which encourages you to be and express yourself while contributing whatever natural talents/abilities you have for the betterment of society. I enjoyed reading your response above because deep down I feel that we share many points in common, perhaps we just use different terminology and have different meanings associated with it. Seems like we are on a similar “spiritual path” but we are approaching it from totally different angles. I’m not going to say that your “angle” or perspective is incorrect, only that it doesn’t correspond with my own experiences. Eg, I’ve come across a lot of people who defined themselves as being “new age/spiritual”, only to find out later that they were incredibly self-centered and self-absorbed, which to me is quite a contradiction. Their behavior (or actions) reflected their true character, and it was somewhat disappointing to say the least. I know that not all of them are this way, as I met some genuine people in this crowd too, but over time I sensed a general shallowness from a lot of them. Perhaps I just didn’t meet the right people?

        I wasn’t trying to “conflate an individual’s spiritual quest with greedy western capitalism” (your quote), but rather trying to point out that western capitalism has unfortunately influenced the new age/spiritual movement, (as it does everything else), thereby diluting its true character and socially unifying purpose. It also has the tendency to turn profound values and concepts into something superficial, which is another aspect of our money-driven culture.

        Meditation is great, and I agree with you that it shows you who (and what) you really are. I believe that there is a lot more to us than just our physical bodies and personas. There are always genuine people who take the time to look deeply into themselves and come to their own conclusions. Perhaps this is your definition of “individualism”? If so, then I can clearly see that we have a different definition of the same word. (I would rather use the word “individuality” here). I’m not saying that your definition is incorrect, just that it has totally different connotations in my mind.

        Whatever the case, beyond semantics, it seems that we are both on a spiritual path. If Seth works for you, then so be it. If it inspires and motivates you to be a better person (or soul), then who am I to argue against it? It would be unrealistic of me to expect that other people, from totally different backgrounds and with different life experiences to agree with my unique definition of “spirituality” or the “spiritual path”. I’m not interested in “winning competitions” or “point scoring”, but only critically observing what I see happening around me. Of course, many others would have a different perspective of the very same phenomena, which would lead to different conclusions. I guess it all depends on your own personal experiences associated with the relevant phenomena, and how they have affected you.

        Btw, I got a lot of my spiritual ideas from books such as “The Tao Te Ching” (Lao Tzu), “The Tibetan book of living and dying” (Sogyal Rinpoche), and two little pocket classics called “Zen essence: the science of freedom” and “The art of peace” written by Morihei Ueshiba, the founder of Aikido. Other stuff on the internet as well, but I’m more discerning with that information.

        Take care. All the best on your “journey”.

  15. One of your statements shows an incongruity in your logic: “Sometimes poor people who believe they’ll always be poor win the lottery.”

    If they always truly believe they will be poor, they don’t play the lottery. They have at least some belief that they can escape it and they attach it to the action of purchasing a ticket. Those who believe they will always be poor accept their lot and don’t try to do anything to change. That is part of the whole Seth message. If you truly believe something is a reality, you won’t take action to change it as your belief will stop you from taking action.

    I think part of any discussion about “creating reality” is that listeners tend to take it literally, and I will admit that Jane Roberts’ material sometimes conveys that idea with some of the sections about changing perceptual reality through mental manipulation. Honestly, I don’t know if I take it all at face value so much as view it as a philosophical work with many tomes. I don’t know if Jane really channeled it or made it up, but it is intricate, interesting, and mind-opening.

  16. Pro or con you all might find this legit research paper interesting:

    http://www.rivier.edu/faculty/pcunningham/Research/Problem_of_Seths_Origin.pdf

    Toward the end the author quote “Seth” on his origins: “What I am is difficult to explain because of the limits set not only by your own knowledge but by the method of our communication (Roberts, 1966, pp. 221-222). You cannot understand what I am unless you understand the nature of personality and the characteristics of consciousness (Roberts, 1972, p. 4). I am simply an energy essence personality, no longer materialized in physical form.”

    Is it really so difficult to comprehend? Couldn’t he have referred them to Jung or Japanese Buddhism? But again, for a group of White kids farting around in suburbia… it’s all new and barely communicable.

    • “a group of White kids farting around in suburbia” — jayvay

      In the above, jayvay points out that people of color aren’t interested in the Seth material. Also, they’re just “kids”, no adults. He doesn’t cite any evidence to support his claims, however; presumably because he thinks simplistic and vacuous generalizations are worthy substitutes, provided they’re edgy enough. This seems to be a consistent theme in his posts.

      What about black people in “suburbia”, jayvay? Do you believe there are any? Or do you think that all black people live in “hell” as Donald Trump suggested? Or maybe you acknowledge they exist, but they’re just not receptive to the Seth material? On what basis can you reasonably make that claim?

      You think you’re making woke commentary when in reality you’re just perpetuating a racist stereotype while simultaneously disparaging the Seth audience as spoiled juveniles . Get off your high-horse and start addressing the topic substantively, jayvay. You’re not making a credible argument using just your self-righteous sanctimony. It only reveals your extremely myopic and biased nature.

      • It’s self-evident to anyone who reads your posts. You characterize Seth fans as being privileged white people, i.e., non-black. Btw, why did you delete Ron’s and my follow-up replies? Too much truth for you?

      • Because it’s my website and I’ll not be trolled by some anonymous fucktard who doesn’t know how to read, doesn’t know me, and hasn’t even bothered to see that my name is not JayVay. I allowed your other inane posts to stand. That’s more than enough.

      • Thee you go again, creating your own reality. I didn’t realize calling me racist based on a ridiculous extrapolation from a purposely-misunderstood sentence required debate. Really, all I need to win this “debate” is to allow people to read your religious zeal. They can decide how enlightened the invisible sock puppet “Seth” left you after your life-altering readings.

      • I didn’t “misunderstand” you. It was also more than a single sentence. See your comments below:

        1) “I think belief creating reality in the Sethian world view stems from WHITE PRIVILEGE.”

        2) “Or rather, it’s right for a young, creative WHITE WOMAN [Jane Roberts] in the 1960s who had an abusive childhood and is now trying to make sense of the world, feel empowered, be heard, etc. THAT, to my mind, makes perfect sense of Seth.”

        3) “Seth Material, as with most New Age schtick, appeals to WHITE PRIVILEGE.”

        4) “But again, for a group of WHITE KIDS farting around in suburbia… it’s all new and barely communicable.”

        Apparently you don’t see it so I’ll try to explain it to you. By stating that Seth only appeals to privileged white people you are also saying Seth DOESN’T appeal to people of color. You have no basis with which to make that claim other than your personal bias. As Ron pointed out, he knows plenty of black people that are into Seth. A personal bias based on race is by definition racist. If you now say that you didn’t mean to suggest “white people” exclusively, then why bring race up at all?

        In addition, you partially attribute Jane Roberts “channeling” of Seth as a resultant byproduct of being white. What you’re in essence saying is that a person of color is less predisposed to articulate the Seth material, irrespective of its validity. Again, you have no objective basis with which to claim this, only your personal bias.

        Also, your name displays on this page as “jayvay”.

      • jayvay,

        I’d also like to point out that while all four of your race-based comments (enumerated above) signal that people of color are not predisposed to the Seth material, you also make additional generalizations as means of distinguishing between Seth originator and Seth follower.

        In the case of your comment regarding Jane Roberts (#2 above), you assert that the provenance of Seth can be attributed to Jane (a “white woman”) suffering ABUSE as a child. Conversely, you unequivocally state that those who follow Seth do so because of their white PRIVILEGE. Putting aside that you don’t know the race or class of Seth followers, your thesis as to the motivation for the followers and originator are antithetical to each other. So much so, it seems contrived.

        To see how arbitrary your distinction is, imagine that Jane didn’t suffer abuse but instead had a privileged upbringing. That’s works even better since it’s consistent with your Follower theory. However, both are based on pure speculation. Your theory relies on zero evidence, it just happens to fit within your biased framework. But so can many other scenarios. In that regard you argue like a conspiracy theorist. Rather than cite any data to support your case, you draw conclusions and make unfounded claims that happen to be compatible in your contrived narrative.

        I realize that you think you’re being edgy and politically woke by making such unfounded assertions, but you should understand that it’s that kind of intellectual and emotional laziness that gives rise to racist and classist stereotypes in the first place and fosters their perpetuation.

  17. Glad that I found your website. Some people are trying to get me to read this Seth stuff. All it looks like is a bunch of Eurocentric, American, 60s “Me” generation crap. It’s too focused on wanting things and the power to “magnetize” them. And then they bring in quantum physics to support it. Quantum physics can support any type of belief system, even the Church of Satan. Whatever. Perhaps if people stopped “wanting things” and focusing on themselves, they’d be happy.

    I have a friend who is a Seth believer. This is one of the people who thinks I should read the Seth material. She’s been poor all her life, nothing has changed. Right now, she’s trying to “magnetize” things into her life according to Seth, ie, “you create your own reality.” Yep. What’s interesting is that she can’t seem to figure out why she’s still poor, because all of these “wants” should be coming into her life, after all she’s “magnetizing” them and thinking about them. She’s trying to change her reality according to Seth. And, I’m sure she’ll be poor next year and for the rest of her life regardless of Seth’s teachings. I find this sad.

    It’s a vicious circle. Buddhism makes more sense to me. You will suffer, experience pain and you won’t get everything you want, so learn to deal with it.

    • Liverwurst12,

      You admit that you haven’t read the Seth material yet you characterize it as “crap” based upon what it “looks like” to you. I could say the same thing about any book I haven’t read if I wanted to. However, I wouldn’t have any credible basis in doing so since my opinion wouldn’t be INFORMED. Same with you, i.e., you’re ill-informed by virtue of not having read any of the material.

      You cite your friend’s failure to manifest her “wants”, presumably to show some sort of proof that the Seth’s philosophy is flawed. You then state you’re “sure she’ll be poor next year and for the rest of her life”. The fact that you’re so fatalistic about your so-called friend’s future says more about you than it does about her.

      Your assertion that Buddhist philosophy espouses the acceptance of pain and suffering is a perversion of Buddhist principles. In reality, the 4th Noble truth of Buddhism states that FREEDOM FROM SUFFERING is gained through the Eightfold Path. I’d advise you to educate yourself on the Path and read Seth to see how they ACTUALLY compare as opposed to speaking from ignorance.

  18. Hi and thank you jayvai for such an interesting forum. I read two Jane Robert’s books – The Seth Material and The Nature of Personal Reality. I WANT to believe that it is true! But at this point, I have only two options – I will either believe it or I won’t. I will never KNOW if Jane Roberts really channeled Seth. I am eager to read the link you have posted here but before that I would like to share some of my own opinions.

    The first and the most obvious contradiction – why did Jane Roberts die of such a terrible and painful death? No matter from which angle I am trying to look at it, it just doesn’t make any sense. Seth was a spirit, LOVE! TRUE love would never make Jane Roberts suffer like this! Seth was talking through her for many years. Seth would have first hand insights into her illness and what to do about it. The simple fact that she channeled this energy would put her into greater proximity of feeling this energy, this love. I also remember in his notes Jane’s husband extensively describes how desperate they were and they couldn’t understand why this was happening to them especially when they knew Seth.

    I remember in The Nature of Personal Reality Seth was explaining that we have to examine our conscientious mind for our limiting believes and he says that he will not be a crutch in this for Jane, that he already explained it to her. I find it very harsh, unloving. Even us, imperfect beings as we are would help in such a situation, if we only knew how!!!

    Another contradiction I find in The Nature of Personal Reality is when an author Robert Bach who wrote the Jonathan Livingston Seagull came to visit Jane to ask Seth about ‘who’ wrote the book. Robert Bach said that he ‘received’ the book, that it was like a sudden block of thought that wasn’t his, an inspiration that didn’t come from him. However, Seth reassured him that it was indeed him, Bach, who wrote the book. I find this very strange because it was practically identical with how Jane wrote the Seth Books.

    Seth talks about healing that can be achieved through changing limiting believes but I believe that true healing comes from love.

    Another contradiction I just cannot swallow is when Seth says that we choose the circumstances of our birth and the challenges of our lifetime which are in many cases totally disastrous and then says that the purpose of life is joy and creativity and soul wants to express itself joyously through flesh. It just doesn’t make any sense. Honestly, if the purpose of life was joy and the soul wanted to experience that, why would it choose some totally miserable conditions where such a joy is completely impossible? Honestly, it either wants challenges and chooses difficult circumstances or it wants joy and chooses great circumstances which enable it to be happy and joyous and creative.

    Plus the soul is suppose to be the most potent and powerful unit in the universe and also very, very wise. Why would it choose so badly then in so many cases?

    Now. The question whether or not we create our reality is the biggest. If we do indeed create it by our thoughts and believes then it would have to be a mathematical certainty! I imagine it, I take action, I have it. Simple. If honestly it was that simple, we would no longer have to ‘believe’ in that, but we would certainly know.

    I have noticed many people who believe in this New Age Philosophy have become completely ignorant to human suffering saying that it is the people’s fault or that they have somehow chosen the circumstances. This makes me really sad because the paradox of looking away and not helping each other is what makes the world such a bad place in the first place, and this arrogance or ignorance (or both) is now being perpetuated by the very means of this philosophy that many people believe we’re meant to help.

    Belief is a state of mind based on something that has not been proven and as such any belief is in itself unstable. A man who bases his life on believes is just like the man who builds his house on sand.

  19. now jayvay, in all honesty, you are merely projecting your opinion on Seth, that’s all. A man’s judgement is no better than his knowledge, and if you have no direct knowledge of anything Seth, but only second and third-hand information, then you must realize that your opinion does not negate nor impinge upon Seth one iota. You are merely espousing negative beliefs, that’s all. Everyone is allowed to espouse their personal opinion one way or the other on anything, regardless, you understand. You are allowed to dis Seth, no problem. Just because you don’t accept anything Seth has no bearing on the existence of Seth. You don’t control the future, now do you? When the student is ready, the teacher appears. Seth stresses that we all have everything we need for our complete sustanence within our inner self-being, our wellspring of knowledge and wisdom within, and we should reply on ourselves for our well being and not upon outside sources, like religion and science for example. I rely strictly upon myself and I do great in life because Seth, the TEACHER led me back to MYSELF. Seth has no name, incidentally, he adopted it only for ID. Perhaps you can’t fathom these points…yet. — ron in Virginia

      • jayvay, school house is for everyone creating their own reality according to their beliefs and expectation…whether we realize it or not, we ALL create our own reality. However, jayvaj, for you, your worst realities are the ones you DON’T create and you might grasp that…ron

  20. …now, you may not be aware, but Richard Bach, for all the glory of his magnificent books, also had a “dark” side…years ago, one day he walked out of his house and abandoned his loving wife and business partner and all his kids never to have any more to do with them. He flew away. As a pilot he was constantly touring various cities and privately screwing women whom swooned over him…he allowed the wrong “head” to rule him. He later punished himself with a near-deadly plane crash. He is my Facebook friend, as is “Valley of the Sun” Dick Sutphin, but that’s another story…ron

    • Seth: “Now. If I thought you were a sheep then I would try to lead you. And I would tell you where to go and what to do. You could ask me questions about your personal life, and I would not require that you think for yourself. Instead, I would be quite happy to tell you what to do and to sit here and receive your thanks. If I thought you had no abilities of your own – and this applies to all of you – if I did not know that you were multi-dimensional personalities with all kinds of abilities at your disposal, then I would not tell you to think and feel for yourselves. I would not say you have the ability within you to solve your own problems. I would solve them for you.

      And if I solved them for you, then you would go about your way, but you would have no faith in your own abilities, and you would have learned nothing.

      I have never implied that my teachings are easy ones, but then I have never treated you like nincompoops. I have never negated your own individual dignity nor integrity. Nor have I let you rely upon your own weaknesses rather than your strengths.

      I want each of you to know yourself – to solve your own problems – because they can not be solved otherwise. And no one can tell any of you what to do! If one problem is solved seemingly in such a manner, then you will simply have to set a new problem of a similar kind and begin again from scratch, in another life or other circumstances in this life. Therefore, it does not serve you, although it may seem initially kind, to help you in such a manner.

      If you realize that you create your physical reality through your own thoughts and desires , then you have learned the most important aspects of reality. This is what you have been setting out to do in your other lives, in your past existences.

      The realization of these truths nullifies any so-called debts from other lives. When you realize this, and act upon it, there is no reason for you to come back here again unless you want to. Any of your difficulties in past lives were caused because you did not realize these basic truths.” …from ron

  21. Dear ron,

    To accuse somebody of racism based on a sentence ‘bunch of white kids from suburbia’ is a bit harsh and completely taken out of context. What jayvay is implying is that it was usually the privilege of higher social classes (such as the whites) who had the time and money to get involved in clubs, hobbies and philosophies. Did you know that in the 1960’s 99% of Medical Students in Harvard were white Americans, which leaves you with just 1% for the American blacks. But never mind…

    Speaking about the credulity of Seth, let me raise a few points. Would you agree with the saying that ‘student is not above the teacher’? I think it is self-explanatory. A teacher can only give so much knowledge as he has and no more. Therefore, let me ask you. Why did Jane Roberts (rest in peace!) suffered and died of such a terrible illness? You see, she suffered terribly for almost two years. She died of rheumatoid arthritis. The symptoms of this condition are pain, and stiffness of joints where the joints in the later stage fuse together and the person becomes totally immobile. This happened to Jane and even worst. She was completely stiff and immobile, even to the point where she had to be given an enema every day and she has also lost lots of weight. You can read in ‘Dreams, Evolution and Value Fulfillment’ by Jane Roberts about the suffering she has been through. On page 15 you can see how desperate Rob was with what was happening and how they couldn’t understand why was that happening since they knew ‘Seth’ and all his advices.

    I believe you would agree with me that the Seth Material started the New Age movement and that many ‘teachers’ were inspired to write books and teach this stuff to others. Dr. Wayne Dyer, for example, wrote over 30 books on this subject but since 2009 suffered with leukemia until his dead in 2015.

    Jerry Hicks who together with Esther Hicks (his wife) plagiarized the Seth Material in so called ‘Teachings of Abraham’ died of leukemia in 2011. He was fighting his illness with an aggressive chemotherapy. They often advised people to ignore results of medical tests, release all resistance and focus on the positive. They also said it was possible to ‘align’ (i.e. get all positive and happy) in ass little as one afternoon, yet Jerry was not able to apply these teachings even after 20 years of teaching them.

    Roberts F. Butts, Jane Robert’s husband, died of cancer in 2008.

    Common sense tells us that these teachers didn’t really know themselves how to cure illness. Real teachers such as Buddha or Christ didn’t just spoke the message they WERE THE MESSAGE!!!

    Now, you would probably agree with me that the origin of Seth will never be proven. In the Nature of Personal Reality, in the foreword, Jane admits that even though she is proud to publish that book, she says: ‘I don’t fully understand the mechanics of its production or the nature of the personality I assume in delivering it’. You see, she ‘assumes’. The definition of ‘assume’: suppose to be the case, without proof. How can we take the existence of Seth as fact when not even Jane is sure what this is all about?

    Ok. So perhaps we cannot prove the existence of Seth, but we can certainly prove some of the false premises in the books. For example, in The Nature of Personal Reality, on page 260, Seth speaks about sleep patterns. He recommends that ‘four hours block is ideal, however, reinforced by whatever nap is required’. Today science has done extensive research into sleep and it is proven beyond doubt that 4, even 5 hours of sleep is totally not sufficient amount of sleep for a human being. Simple google search of ‘Can humans function on only 4 hours sleep per night?’ or ‘sleep deficiency’ will give you so much evidence that you can scrap this Seth sentence as totally false. I will not copy/paste all the data from the websites here, just one example for all.

    ‘After several nights of losing sleep—even a loss of just 1–2 hours per night—your ability to function suffers as if you haven’t slept at all for a day or two.

    It’s estimated that driver sleepiness is a factor in about 100,000 car accidents each year, resulting in about 1,500 deaths.

    The waking EEG of sleep deprived individuals will show evidence of sleep debt repayment in the form of intrusions of slow waves during the waking state.’

    Another totally unscientific statement of Seth about weather is in The Nature of Personal Reality on page 348: ‘Your feelings are as natural a part of the environment as trees are. They have a great effect upon the weather. There are even connections that can be made, for instance, between epilepsy and earthquakes, where great energy and instability come together, affecting the physical properties of the earth.’

    Again simple google search of ‘What determines weather patterns?’ or ‘What causes earthquakes?’ Will give you clear scientific and common sense explanation. For example google search ‘Why is Australia so hot?’ will give you this answer:

    ‘Australia is located in the Southern Hemisphere. In this hemisphere temperatures are extreme because here Summer season and Closeness to Sun occurs together. So, summers are hot. Since this country is surrounded all along by Water, so winter is mild.’

    Common sense tells me, that no matter how people in Australia feel, they will simply not turn Australia into Antarctic. Another example: in the last 10 years over 300 000 people immigrated to the UK from EU. However, the weather stays the same – rainy and miserable. Why didn’t people from the EU bring with them the dry and clear weather that is common in all other parts of Europe apart from UK?

    What bothers me also is that the Seth material is practically not original at all. All the stuff that Jane Roberts writes about were written before. She uses ideas of people such Carl Jung, Sigmund Freud, Ralph Waldo Emerson, Einstein.
    The idea of parallel universes was Einstein’s. He also said ‘Reality is merely an illusion, although a very persistent one.’ The term ‘Over-soul’ that Jane Roberts used was firstly used by Ralph Waldo Emerson. Also many of Emerson’s philosophy is reflected in the Seth Material and so is Carl Jung’s and Freud’s – all about the conscientious mind and the subconscious, about dreams, about ego and emotions. Also, please, see the Charles Haanel Master Key System. This book is practically reflected in the Seth books – from the ‘Focus on what you want’ to nervous reflexes, limiting believes, the importance of imagination etc. She also used many of Buddhist philosophy and Christianity. Also, please, see Aldous Huxley and his take on LSD etc.

    However, what I’ve found a total laugh in the face was when I’ve found out that Jane Roberts was writing science fiction literature before she made up Seth. She was writing for The Magazine of Fantasy and Science Fiction and ‘she was the only woman invited to the first science-fiction writer’s conference in 1956 in Milford, PA’. When I’ve read this the penny dropped…

    There are many other things I can write about the Seth Material but for the purpose of the comment I will leave it there. Maybe just one more thing. Why did Jane Roberts went on TV and even toured when she wrote some of the first Seth books? She simply went to advertise herself. The whole money-making motivation behind the Seth books is so blatant and this continues up to this very day.

    To wrap this up. This universe is far too great to deny an existence of a Higher Power whatever that may be. However, our deep desire for connection with this and our naivety are targets for predators. Ask yourself, aren’t Christ’s or Buddha’s teachings enough? Do you really need to pay to someone else for this guidance? Do you really think the intelligence within you is lesser than someone else’s? No matter what, there is life without Seth.

    • Seth was an intermediate teacher who many times admitted that he did not invent his message, he was for the slow learner, however, his job was to remind those interested of the lost and forgotten messages of the ages and he also mentioned the many other non-physical and physical teachers who also have been bringing us the same messages but in different words, and that message is to seek within your own answers. However, when I was 5 years old, I was not instantly enlightened, I was put in school for 12 years, and then college, so I needed teachers to bring me the message so that then I could figure things out for myself, you see. Teachers are necessary in some cases. The Church, some 2,000 years ago, for example, hijacked Christ’s message and created a Christian church and religion for profit, greed and gain. The Church created the Crucifixion myth as Christ was not the man hung on the cross, the Muslims got it right, incidentally, and this was also revealed to me by my space friend back in 1962 when I was contacted by a UFO-ET teacher, yes, I’m a “closet” contactee who never went public. “His” message was nearly identical to Seth’s when I picked up Seth Speaks in 1974, so the message comes from many sources, many teachers. I am still learning…ron

      • “….seek within your own answers.” That which you seek becomes your illusion. And that which is your own answer can’t be too hard to find. Therefore, this is bad advice. If you think you’re “enlightened” from this journey, you might want to sit with how that cannot be.

      • You create your own reality according to your beliefs, intents and expectations, and you do so individually and en masse, and until you learn this, you learn little. Your personal beliefs, one way or the other, don’t affect Seth’s teachings one iota, any more than I need your permission slip to create my reality. Your disbelief are your own; they don’t affect me and my beliefs. Your beliefs apply only to you and your truths are strictly your own, no one elses…ron

      • You’re lying to yourself. My disbelief TOTALLY affects you or you wouldn’t be here arguing with someone you don’t know or care about over this. That is what zealots do to protect themselves from the one truth we are all born into: We don’t know anything except that we’re here now, we die, and we’re deeply terrified of death. When you’re deeply terrified of death, the easiest thing to do is believe something about it, build “knowledge” around that belief, and then convert others to it through persuasion. Priests are the first salesmen. In this way do we maintain the illusion of control over life and death through knowledge.

      • It is a shame that you sell yourself short, I shall look you up in the next reality and ask you what you feel about your new realm, the one you had no concept of in this reality…ron

      • jayvay:

        Ron isn’t “lying” to himself. He’s taking exception to your belief that one can’t control their day-to-day reality. That doesn’t equate to him having been “TOTALLY affected” by your beliefs. His statements are simply a clarification that your limited views are your own, along with the corresponding resultant reality that will manifest based on those self-imposed constraining beliefs.

        You’re attempting to compare Ron to a “zealot”, “priest”, and a “salesman” all because he doesn’t conform to your limited belief system. Given your dogmatic rigidity on this topic one would more accurately ascribe those labels to you, not him. Also, you seem to think that nothing is known about reality except our existence, death, and fear. I would argue that besides being an inaccurate assessment, it is nihilist in the extreme.

        Do you really think if a person repeatedly put their hand into a flame — and got burned every time — that that person doesn’t “know” they would get burned if they tried it again? The certainty of getting burned again is much more in the realm of immediate and tangible “knowing” than the philosophical examples you provided. I point out the above not necessarily to make an argument for the Seth material, but to highlight the weakness of your response. Stating contrived nihilistic assertions as a basis with which to smear Ron as a proselytizer is a non-starter in terms of advancing a productive discussion.

      • If you calm down from trying to make me be wrong and you be right, perhaps you’ll see what I’m actually saying beneath the literal. Of course we learn not to burn ourselves and the such. We’re not talking about that level of knowing, are we?

      • Put aside that you’re in an argument for a second, please. Just think about this one thing and tell me it isn’t a fact. Not “Oh, you took a census did you? You know all the facts do you?” No, I don’t have real data on this but I do understand a few things and so do you. So here goes….

        Of all the things I’ve written about or spoken of publicly the one subject I get the second-most pushback on is Seth–second only to the fact that hypnosis is a bad tool for memory retrieval. The core message people GENERALLY take away from Seth is that we create our own reality. We are in control, right? The gods of our own destiny. Now, why do you think this is so appealing to so many people in such a huge way that my position is offensive enough to call me on it? I say a lot about a lot and yet this one really irks people.

        Why?

        Does “we create our reality” not derive its mass appeal from the fact that it keys into the core wish of our culture? Manifest Destiny. Colonialism. We’re in charge. We’re conquerors. Nobody tells us what to do. Rugged Individualism. Pull yourself up by the bootstraps. The apparent separateness of things and our autonomy.

        If you’re alone in a world of unknowns, better to be a god than a coward, am I right?

        All of that is the underpinning of its appeal. I mean just think about it. It’s obvious. AND… there might be some truth to it. But not all truth. In fact, it might be a tiny thing on the way to a greater reveal. It might not be the end-all-be-all so much as a blip on the radar–and it may be a blip wrongly translated by an alleged entity.

        Now, what is so offensive about saying all of that? It is offensive because you think that if this were the case you’d be intelligent enough to detect it and since you’ve, in part, built up your sense of self around this idea then I am tearing you down when I tear down the idea.

        Right? It’s not much more complicated than that. I have to be the one who doesn’t get it, spouting off like Homer Simpson–and likely an asshole to boot–because there is no way the idea you cherish and maybe have even experienced in some sense isn’t the way. It’s a painful realization we’ll protect ourselves from at all costs. We’ll even argue with a writer we’ve never heard of until we’re blue in the face. And the reason we do it is because deep down in the repressed depths we still know what we covered up in the first place.

      • I have fun when I come here, when I come here I have fun, and that is what life is supposed to be all about, fun and LOVE!…ron

      • “If you calm down from trying to make me be wrong and you be right, perhaps you’ll see what I’m actually saying beneath the literal. Of course we learn not to burn ourselves and the such. We’re not talking about that level of knowing, are we?” –jayvay

        Apparently YOU are (or were). You previously said:

        “We don’t know ANYTHING EXCEPT that we’re here now, we die, and we’re deeply terrified of death.”

        You are now apparently saying that you didn’t mean the above literally and that you now acknowledge we do “know” other things and that other things are potentially “knowable”. If more knowledge is to be gained in addition to the (inaccurate and incomplete) items you mentioned above, then your attempt to characterize anyone as a zealot because they hold alternate theories to your own is just a puerile smear.

        Also, I’m not “making” you be “wrong”. As I mentioned to you before (April 10, 2016 at 5:19 pm), I’m just pointing out the numerous fallacies that YOU make. Also, I suggest that it’s YOU who needs to “calm down” so as to be more reflective on your commentary before posting since you’re now rehashing the same material. Although, you don’t have to of course — I’m good with responding to you either way.

        As to your longer reply to me above:

        You’re insistent on assigning the cause for why people follow Seth to a correlation between people’s desires with it’s overlap of your political views and the belief system as espoused by Seth. While that correlation may exist, it doesn’t necessarily mean that’s why people follow Seth. People could just as well be following Seth based on a multitude of other reasons besides the one you provided. Your theory certainly says nothing about the validity of the Seth material.

        I already stated in that April post I referenced above that “correlation doesn’t necessarily imply causation”. Apparently you don’t grasp this yet. Your theory carries no more evidentiary weight than the theory that Bush was directly responsible for 911 because he and his cronies would make a shit load of money from the resultant perpetual warfare that would inevitably follow. Maybe he was responsible, but then maybe Bin Laden was. Same thing with the JFK assassination: a lot of people had motivation to kill him. The point is, whatever correlations that may exist, by themselves, they are not dispositive in terms of determining the actual causes. This is why I previously said you argue like a conspiracy theorist. You use correlations as a means to draw conclusions which satisfy your preconceived bias.

        “…built up your sense of self around this idea then I am tearing you down when I tear down the idea.” — jayvay

        The only thing you’re tearing down are the strawmen you’ve erected. Like I said, your arguments are fallacious.

      • Based on your previous bloviated and vitriolic posts I should have figured you’d end the discussion in such a childish manner. Your petulance reveals a massive blind spot, jayvay. You might consider working on that. Anyway, I tried.

      • I’ll just park this last tweet right here….

        Note To Morons: when you extraneously dissect an argument and then demand answers, you are allowed to believe you’ve won with silence.

      • It’s appropriate you placed your “note to morons” on your twitter feed, jayvay, thereby insuring they’re informed.

    • “When man realizes that he himself creates his personal and universal environment in concrete terms, then he can begin to create a private and universal environment much superior to the one that is the result of haphazard and unenlightened constructions.” …Seth

  22. Dear Ron and whoever else may be reading this,

    I appreciate your comment and I also appreciate you are a true believer. The point of my message is by no means to get people rid of faith and belief in a Higher Power. The point of my message, and I would image many people would agree with me to this point, is that what you want to believe is the TRUTH!!!

    I myself grew up in a religion and believed many things that were not true. My own logical reasoning and physical evidence was always the basis for uncovering these lies. For example, in the Catholic religion many people believe they are inherently bad, sinners. Of course, logically this cannot be true because if you believe in what they tell you in church you must also believe that God says that everything that he created was good (Genesis 1:31). People were paying for centuries for their sins and salvation to the church. The Indulgence ended by the Catholic Church in the middle of the 20th century after uncovering of the corruption of the church. I believe you would agree with me that many people, in fact MILLIONS of people, were misled by what they were told was truth. But what makes the situation worst is that they were misled ON PURPOSE!!! They were misled by the corrupted church that only wanted to PROFIT on honest believers.

    Now the question is this: What makes you believe that the present so called New Age movement is based on honesty and truth? Why should it be different from the religions of the past? Many people are loosing faith in organized religions and are looking for truth, happiness and freedom. Many people are deeply unhappy, suffering with illnesses and living in poverty. These people are such an easy target for the predators who teach about how we create our own reality. You must understand what these people are doing to the innocent believers. Once you believe in something your mind is locked and it is extremely difficult to look at what you believe critically because the belief itself becomes a part of your identity. It is like a cornerstone of your life upon which you build your hopes and dreams that you really believe will come true one day. Lets say that it is true that we create our own reality. It is a simple message. The fundamental of such a message is love and total freedom. You would think that a person who spread such a message is selfless and has love for humanity. But let me tell you this. This is NOT the case. This movement is just a big money making business that parasitizes on the weak and vulnerable. If you want to bring the Bible into this, it says ‘Heal the sick, raise the dead, cleanse those who have leprosy, drive out demons. Freely you have received; freely give.’ (Mathew 10:8). They were words of Jesus to his 12 apostles. You see, a TRUE love! Love and freedom is free. You cannot buy love and you cannot buy freedom in some form of a book or seminar. Let me give you a few examples of this hideous crime that is done to people, this greed called love.

    Esther Hicks who channels so called ‘Abraham’ and practically plagiarized the Seth Material is charging $250 per person to attend her workshop. Like I said in my previous comment, they were together with her husband Jerry Hicks, teaching people how you create your reality. They said it is possible to ‘align’ (i.e. get happy and positive) in as little as one afternoon but Jerry Hicks was not able to align himself even after 20 years of teaching this, as he died of Leukemia in 2011. If you have at least a little common sense left in you, you cannot deny that something with the teachings must be wrong. Seriously, just look at her website. Google ‘Abraham hicks seminars price list’ and you will see how commercialized the ‘you create your reality’ movement is. Look at this, this is a clear marketing strategy (copy/pasted from web site): ‘*Cost for each workshop is $225 until 3PM CT the business day (M-F) prior to the workshop and $250 after 3PM CT (the day prior to the workshop) until the workshop starts’. Did you know that at times she charged over $400 per tickets on the cruises? What you need to bear in mind is that people who attend these workshop are often in dire need of money or incurably ill or unable to find love and meaningful relationships. Why people cannot see how evil and cruel she is? She is parasitizing on people who are desperate for change and often they don’t have enough money themselves. How can somebody who preaches love be so cruel? Also, please, google ‘Abrascam: Followers may fall, but the snow must go on’ and you can read how deep this scam really is. They control their forum, so that any negative discussion is quickly stopped. One of the Abraham Hicks followers committed suicide, her last comment deleted and her status from the forum reduced to guest and her forum avatar removed. You must understand that this is a conscientious, well thought out scam on people. They know what they are spreading is lies but guess what – it pays well!

    Look at Kavin Trudeau. His set of CDs ‘Your wish is your command’ is another example of this New Age propaganda about how you can make millions using your mind. Please, google Kavin Trudeau and read his biography. He started his career as a salesman (just like Jerry Hicks from the above scam) and before he even started to teach about how we create our own reality he was a fraudster and imprisoned for scamming people. He is currently serving 10 years in prison. How can you believe that anything that falls out of the mouths of people like this is true? These people make billions selling ‘happiness’ to desperate souls.

    What makes you believe that the Seth Material is anything but different? Let me tell you, it is not. It is another moneymaking machine invented by Jane Roberts. If you read her biography you will see that she and her husband Rob were struggling artists. They even moved to Elmira to find jobs. Rob was working for some greeting card company and Jane in an art gallery. Not exactly dream jobs for aspiring artists, are they? Jane made sure she advertised her Seth books. Why otherwise she would go on TV and toured the country? The Seth books sold many millions of copies over the years. If you go on Amazon you will see how expensive the books are to this very day. Here in the UK The Nature of Personal Reality is £18.99 in paperback and the Seth Speaks is £15.24 in paperback. Just look at the Seth Learning Centre web site. It is nothing but a sales job – ‘Special offer, FREE CD, introduction to Seth’ and the rest is just selling books and products. Please, WAKE UP, people, WAKE UP!!!

    I cannot get into it deeply but there are so many inconsistencies in the Seth Books that it is shocking to find people who really believe in this. Just the example in my previous comment about Seth’s recommendation for 4 hours sleep pattern – seriously, come on, who can believe in this? Please, try to sleep for 4 hours a day for a week and you will see what it will do to you. If God would speak through Jane she would NEVER EVER died of such a terrible illness.

    Look at another example. In the Seth Speaks on page 181 at the beginning it says: ‘The following paragraph will be written by another personality’. You must ask yourself what does it mean? Did Jane channel just Seth or some other personalities as well? It just doesn’t make any sense.

    Now let me tell you this. I still believe in God and I will never stop believing because this universe is far too great to deny this. But like I said, what I want to believe is the TRUTH. Do we really create our own reality? Well, I don’t know but sadly, so far I was not able to create the millions or the dreams that I believed I could. I can only keep searching. I’ve recently come across a book ‘Bible mystery and Bible meaning by Thomas Troward’ and some audios on YouTube by the same author (for example The Hidden Power). Troward has an interesting take on the meaning of Bible, which many New Age believers will find like music to their ears. He speaks about many of the Bible symbolisms such as, for example,
    the number 666 as a symbol of duality and the number 3 as a symbol of unity (of God and man). He explains hat the false principle of duality, separateness (of God and man) is the false principle upon which the world stands to this very day. He explains that it is an established truth that every unity contains in itself a trinity just like the man consists of soul, body and spirit. He says that ‘because the trinity of mind, soul and body, if considered as unity, may be expressed as the figure 333, and therefore duality is 333 x 2 = 666.’ You can listen to this on Youtube (The Hidden Power by Thomas Troward) time on approximately 3:23:24. In the Bible Mystery and Bible Meaning (on page 24) he speaks, for example, about the Noah Ark and explains that it was just a symbol not a real boat. It was a symbol of the human body and the measurements (sacred numerology) of the Ark therefore ‘exemplifies the accurate proportions of the human body.’ He also says that the Westminster Abbey and the Milan Cathedral were build on the same architectural mathematical proportions.

    Please note that the reason I write here about the Bible is not to preach the Bible, neither I am saying that it is the truth. What I am saying is that the Bible is the only book that ever thought me about how to be a better human and after reading Troward’s take on the meaning of Bible I feel I have a logical understanding why what is in the Bible could be true. The Bible teachings are at the basis of the New Age movement and I am saying that if you want to learn and belief that you create your own reality, then, please, go and read the Bible instead and stop putting money in pockets of scammers and fraudsters. The overall message of the Bible is that each individual human being is complete and one with God and autonomous and doesn’t need anything else from outside – such as gurus and teachers and other false beliefs in external gods and so forth. And I believe that this is the ‘TRUTH that shall set you free’ because in realizing that what you are is enough and is good and is powerful you will stop looking to someone else for answers and you will become in-extortionable and free and ultimately your OWN boss.

    • JayVay, Here’s a little something I put together just for you to help you unwind…ron

      ron’s Comparative Guide to Religions…

      Agnosticism……Shit may or may not happen.
      Atheism……I don’t believe in shit!
      Baptist……Believe Jesus died for your shit–die, go to heaven.
      Branch Davidianism……This shit really burns me up.
      Buddhism……If shit happens, it really isn’t shit.
      Cartesianism……I think, therefore shit happens.
      Catholicism……Shit happen because you are a sinner.
      Psychic Channeling……Tune into Shit, happening NOW!
      Christian Science……Shit only happens in your mind.
      Church of England……Excrement transpires.
      Confucianism……Confucius say, “shit happens.”
      Druidism……Shit happens in the woods.
      EST……I acknowledge my shit.
      Evangelism……Will you accept shit happening in your heart?
      Existentialism……What exactly is shit anyway?
      Hedonism……There’s nothing like a good shit happening.
      Hinduism……This shit happened before.
      Islam……If shit happens, it is the will of Allah.
      Isisism……We will cut your shitty infidel Crusader head off!!!
      Jehovah’s Witnesses…Knock, knock…shit happens.
      Jim Baker……I had shitty extramarital sex, got de-churched.
      Jim Jones……Drink sweet, purple shit and die.
      Judaism……Why does this shit always happen to me?
      Krishna……Shit happens, rama, rama.
      Mensa……the top 2% of shit happening.
      Lutheranism……God help me, here shit happens.
      Methodism……Shit happens; support group available.
      Moonies……Only happy shit happens.
      Mormonism……You must look closely at the turd.
      New Age……Shit is the Goddess.
      Nihilism……No shit!
      Paganism……Earth, air, fire, water, the 5th element, shit.
      Presbyterianism……This shit is too dear to my heart.
      Protestantism…..Let shit happen to somebody else.
      Psychic……Saw shit coming, got hit from behind.
      Puritanism……Pure shit happens to pure minds.
      Quaker……Geet thy shit together, friend.
      Rastafarianism……Let’s smoke this shit.
      Roman Catholic……Christ died for your shit.
      Satanism……Eternal shit for all sinners.
      Scientology……Does shit happen? ( See page 469.)
      Shintoism……Farts happen.
      Seventh Day Adventism……No shit happens on Saturday.
      Stoicism……Shit does not bother me, it is painless.
      Taoism……Shit happens.
      Televangelism……Send in more shit. We need it!
      Transcendental Meditation……7000 meditators make shit happen.
      Weight Watchers……You pay for excess shit at weigh-in.
      Wicca…..Shit happens to be good fertilizer.
      Zen……What is the sound of shit happening?
      Sethianism……You create your own shit!

      • LOL! I think the best comment on the forum so far! Love this: ‘Psychic……Saw shit coming, got hit from behind.’ 🙂

  23. Alright I’m going to go ahead and slap my 53 cents in. Half of this thread – cringe and the other half of it is a person thinking that they can get through to the near dimwit creator of this blog – and his mountain dew guzzling clan. NO OFFENSE. Due to skimming after the original argument was garbled in translation, I don’t know where to even start. Bare with, I stopped reading once it was said the video wouldn’t be even watched because you were trying to sarcastically create your own reality…..

    As is with every sensitive topic dealing with alternate reality, health, philosophy, and science it gets messy. It seems like predominately atheism or “new aged movements” are the only two ‘realities’ that coexist. Believers don’t doubt, but doubters believe in something. Notice how doubters seem to shift in and out of what ifs just ask believers may slip out of content. You two are one in the same. However doubters are like natural selection victims being only comfortable ironically in their own skin when conversation such as poverty and leftover meatloaf matters. As this is the height of their life. For a second i would think they it would be of comfort to know entities like Seth exist. I thought it would be a joy to actually know about something else for once other than poverty and leftover meatloaf. But nope, you are so joyous preserving the physical (lowest) aspect of our lives as being the dominant one. The only reason why ‘we’ haven’t reached the pinnacle of understanding is because we have people playing charades with ideologies, perverting the teachings making the knowledge come off as a laughing stock. Its as though the wisdom left behind isn’t appreciated until martyrdom. “Ommgrh a channeler thats so fake , we create nothing we r nothing but mammals so lets do it”. Just stop.

    But lets remain on topic – one conversation here talks about putting in footwork but has never created anything of worth in the past 15 years. Claiming that “ego” is the case of the thorn in the side of society, and because of teachings of Seth or anything remotely to it we should view them as folly. Do you think people sat around Buddha or Jesus but turned a nose up at them because they didn’t “believe” ? Sure of course they did, however tell me how the hell do we not hear about those non believers? Receipts? I mean for fucks sake perhaps they were in another dimension debunking Seth books at the time and missed out an opportunity to act radical against fat belly boy and virgin king. Not saying either religious character exists or not but come on folks, every book is the same. Its their teachings. Everything you want to know about what is and what isn’t is out there. So why not parade over the brilliance of a layout such as Seths. Especially something modern and at hand.

    Doom, warnings, wake up calls..anything to become “awoke” are sadly the things we have to go through to understand the intent of why we go through things and have life and death. We don’t console ourselves enough, we search for reasoning to debunk than a reason to utilize even the bone of knowledge and superpower. Why we are here journeying – leave the meatloaf be. But that is just it, everything that exists like your highly opinionated comments and suffering is just a reminder that maybe we really dont know anything, and then those that study and use the LAWS find a way out of deception. By becoming so chaotic we must slow down and find equilibrium. Solace is when you refuse to refute what is and what isnt. Solace is knowing what is not just blindly disbelieving because you haven’t been shown it yet. The universe will protect you in forms that aren’t tangible to us as humans sometimes but our needs and wants still gravitate for us. Materialism is a diseases. Language , emotions, thoughts, pain, sickness, visions, colors etc. is all a way to keep grip of what powers we have. Our bodies keep us humble. To keep us curious and on our toes. I will talk more about that later. Trauma was my bursting point at walking this path of life..well barely but after i was in that accident i converted all things unhealthy into healthy and its been working so far for me. My favorite test is synchronization and i hold it dear to me like a charm. I believe everyone has a personal “Seth” rather they come to you in Jane’s material herself, the bible, Crowley, Fox, CNN, jesus on toast, pcp , or any other mainstream systems. Whatever, we are all divine. Take it with care, and most important take it with caution. Many people will try to spook you out of hope, hope is all we ever have. Quit trying to making it seem like despair.Why is it that the non believers do not scream from summits asking for answers that their fellow race claim they have excess to? The gods arm, why do you not want it? Well certainly i think these people are degenerates who solely exist for others to use them as pawns to the next leadership role in their reality. Without them how else would you have a wiz of doubt to compute that into wanting to find out more. Thats true evolution and expanding the mindset. That is the rabbit hole. That is the beauty of nature and the initiate into this gifted curse. Non believers also seem to fail using themselves as a vessel to defy their opinionated rules, they start shitting on the condition of others comfort for what gain? Its like you all get off track and start arguing over who is right and who is wrong instead of the latter which is LETS FIND TOGETHER. Anything remotely esoteric is always ending in war. There just may not ever be a compromise – and for that as i stated above might be the reason behind itself. There cannot be a compromise as the viewer in their own reality will always have a battle of balance – we as this entity or entities do not know anything and therefore the physical animates for us until its unrecognizable of what we have created, hope you’re on the same page.

    “Unconsciously we are subconscious about everything constantly, which makes us constantly everything. The doubts are the seedlings of hope sprouted, sprouting, and to be sprouted to one day be a tree , or a stump, a mere leaf even ” – Me and my definition on what subjective means.

    Thinking poverty is more important than spirituality is poison, the anatomy of ourselves should always be a priority in its natural form – What is a white mans teaching anyway? My goodness i grew up in pure poverty there goes that. Today’s clowns have coined the term freedom of man as insanity. HA get out. Keep in mind i haven’t read an ounce of Seth books, i just have made my way around many philosophies, lectures, shamans, poets, authors, criminals, genius’, others and all of brilliant law offerings that are available. I’ve put my “magick” to use and trust me use your powers people don’t sit on your ass watching NFL and debunking possibilities.. its sad and sick that they teach calculus instead of the slightest fucking chapter from The Kybalion, just like its sad to see you all bicker about facts knowing that ‘facts’ are just figments of imagination. With such adjectives going around the world like evil, occult, nutty etc you can tell that fear as a whole has gotten long in the way. Anyways I rambled ill be checking this post for the next 2 weeks to get a chat with anyone here.

    • I want to thank you for swooping in with YOUR wisdom from on high. Oh wait, no. You just did the same thing you’re railing against: hurled insults and launched into a long-winded diatribe.

      What I’m positing is simple and proven throughout this thread: “Seth’s” message is shallow. It is egocentric as opposed to ego-shattering. And oh yeah, there’s a cultural context for him coming through her at that time. And oh yeah, some of his teachings are not universal, but have the stink of white society from back then the way even good 80s movies have the stink of synthesizer music. Product of their times and all.

      You with your no-football vegan diet of magicks and philosophy must surely understand the difference between egocentric “truths” and ego-shattering Truth. The first comes with a cup of chai and a man bun. The second doesn’t care what it comes with.

      I’ll let you get back to your incense and tantric dumbfuckery in the quiet room with the Buddhist gong, Rasta bong, and all the other stuff you got for Christmas, even though you cannot stand that conventional holiday, plopped as it is, over the true Pagan holiday of Saturnalia.

      Enjoy the tofu nog!

    • Jesus, jayvay. You are, without doubt, completely unhinged. So much so, I’m beginning to suspect that you’re not arguing in good faith and your comments are purposely designed to be insufferably obtuse and vitriolic in an attempt to get more hits on your site.

      If you recall, your original beef with Seth was that the material was “crap”. Subsequent to the “crap” phase, you had indicated that his philosophy could be gleaned from Jung and Japanese Buddhism. Now it appears that your gripe with him is that he’s too “shallow” and not “ego-shattering”. In other words: you’re all over the map, i.e., incoherent.

      You also say that some of his teachings are not universal. Which teachings? How do you know? How about his other teachings? What constitutes “universal”? Does that automatically mean it’s not true or without merit? If so, why? Does a philosophy have to be universal for it to be true? If so, why and which teachings? On what objective and rational basis upon which you can formulate and support ANY of your conclusions, jayvay? You haven’t supplied any.

      As I mentioned before you don’t have any reasonable grounds, just pure speculation based upon political correlations that you happen to have an affinity for. You hope that if you blow hard enough people won’t see that what you’re saying is completely without foundation. Your simplistic and gross generalizations now even extend to 80’s movie soundtracks. You think you’re making clever hipster-isms when in reality they’re just cheap shots used to mask your feeble talking-points. Your vile insults (and further stereotyping) to alexander fully demonstrates that to anyone reading your over-the-top and fallacious rhetoric.

      • I’m not reading more than the first few sentences. EVERYTHING I SAID IS IN THE BLOG POST. But no one wants to deal with what I actually wrote. But for the record? EGO-BUILDING IS SHALLOW CRAP. SEE HOW THERE’S NO DISCREPANCY? One problem is, you don’t understand depth in these areas. it all looks like a one-dimnensional field to you. But saying this hurts your feelings, so instead of acknowledging that you will bait me into another fight about something else I never wrote or you misunderstood.

        See how this is a waste of time?

      • As I hit SEND, I caught your last bit about my vile insults to Alexander. 1.) They were meant to be humor, but biting humor in reference to 2.) HIS VILE INSULTS SLUNG AT ME, YOU FUCKING MORON. LERN TOO REEDE OR I’M BANNING YOU FOR STUPID.

        Oh. And Happy Holidays.

      • No, “everything you said” is not in the blog post. You’ve said quite a bit more in the comments section. I’m taking exception to all of it in aggregate, not just specific sentences. This is self-evident to anyone reading our exchanges.

        Yes, “THERE’S NO DISCREPANCY” in your most recent statement — “EGO-BUILDING IS SHALLOW CRAP” — if taken within the limited context you now frame it in. But that’s not what you originally said. Your original statement was, “Seth’s message is shallow. It is egocentric as opposed to ego-shattering”. See the difference?

        In the original you sent up a dichotomy between “egocentric” and “ego-shattering” (which is true if you’re using those two terms how I think you intended them). You then link “shallowness” with egocentrism because it was wasn’t ego-shattering. That’s inaccurate since we can agree that there’s plenty of non-shallow philosophies which aren’t ego-shattering. You are now backpedaling by saying that you meant “EGO-BUILDING” as opposed to “egocentric”. However, they are not the same thing in the context of the dichotomy you originally set up.

        As far as your comments regarding your “humor” are concerned, I’ll let others be the judge.

        Note to readers:

        It looks like jayvay may be fixin’ to ban me so if you don’t hear from me you know why.

      • I’m not backpedaling. Ego-building IS ego-centric. I’m sorry I don’t spell out every little thing for you, Jeff. I assumed you were an adult and could fill in the gaps with this wondrous tool, the brain.

        We can go back and forth for another hundred comments, but I’m pretty sure you’re just going to keep moving the goal post. Seth presents nothing deep and as I demonstrated by quoting him, “he” sounds suspiciously like a product of his times and this culture–which is precisely what one would expect from the mind of the woman channelling him. Because–spoiler alert–he isn’t real.

        I get it. You disagree. Seth is amazing. Look at the wonders he’s done for you. You’re arguing semantics with a stranger so you can win an argument and feel superior…. or just because you’re pissed. Either way, don’t sign me up for that enlightenment. And don’t tell me that’s deep.

        You can’t create your own reality. If you could I’d have shut up and apologized for being so wrong by now. Or been hit by a truck.

      • Wait, hold up. I just caught something. You’re presenting “Seth” philosophy as if it is on par with other philosophies. It isn’t. Seth is saying THIS IS HOW REALITY WORKS. He’s not presenting something to ponder but something to believe in and try. (And when it doesn’t work, we can just keep pretending it does like any other false belief.)

      • Okay you got me. I type this drinking my tofu nog, second cup. No but all jokes aside, scrolling a bit more is a whole mess of insults that you tagged along in too especially Ron who seems to get a kick out mocking the obvious. No biggie I can take an an insult or five please don’t whine. I actually ENJOY this blog for the past 10 minutes I’ve been on this page, will probably skim through it more.

        Now firstly here’s what I think about the whole egocentric / ego-shattering. Both are notable lifestyles, and even more so both are behaviors that already interchange in just one person within our society. One behavior isn’t more stagnant than the other. So why bash Seth for only appearing when he wants. Naturally, rather you like it or not we are egocentric beings. There are some culture out there that do not know what an ounce of guilt feels like far off in the lands. And they would know shallowness because they dont understand what reflection even is. To a degree the western world we are trying to survive in, a dumb downgraded cage, has made us pity such ideas as possible reality of solipsism. There are many alternate ways of living. Each thought is a new method of reality. The one thing that we know and love feels to be only utilized the most in the recent 10 last great civilizations, is materialism anything anti-matter is phony and “impossible” Its vision is and has created an order , and somehow within that order we have still managed to bring along egocentrics. For what reason? Well because solipsism thats why.

        Corporations and institutions use solipsism in aiding their statistics willingly doing so or not its in use everyday. You should know about “social solipsism” the tidbits that are on the internet – and get to understand the genre itself out there in the real world if you must. Our ‘western way’ remember is only one way. I notice you keep saying “white society” the only thing white society about this is that Seth is resurfacing a religion, idea, theory that has already been introduced to us beyond and before Africa itself so i don’t get your point there. Let me tell you if solipsism existed in just one country itself, there wouldn’t be poverty there. Its basically a transmutation of dogma without dictatorship. How can you not see that each divine teacher we have has some form of personal systematic way of living similar to any solipsistic person. In conclusion because i rambled on again what is so detrimental about shallowness? After all a person doesn’t know they are shallow unless they are told – if they weren’t they would only be being themselves.

      • “I’m not backpedaling. Ego-building IS ego-centric.” — jayvay

        You’re still not getting it. What I took exception to was your original (1st) statement which was entirely different from your 2nd (backpedaled) statement:

        1st: “Seth’s message is shallow. It is egocentric as opposed to ego-shattering.”
        2nd: “EGO-BUILDING IS SHALLOW CRAP.”

        As I previously stated, a lack of depth doesn’t follow from a lack of ego annihilation because plenty of other non-shallow philosophies aren’t contingent on it either. Your subsequent 2nd statement — the backpedaled one — removes the annihilation contingency which your first statement was predicated on. Your 2nd statement can SOMETIMES be true whereas your 1st is illogical. Stop pretending they’re equivalent statements, jayvay. They’re not.

        “I assumed you were an adult and could fill in the gaps with this wondrous tool, the brain.” — jayvay

        Your “gaps” aren’t the type that lend themselves to the reader “filling” them in. They’re more accurately described as multiple breaches of logic on your part. However, I’m pointing them out to you in our exchanges. The above is just another example among the many breaches you make. You came in with your backpedaled statement only after I pointed out your fallacious original statement. Words mean things, jayvay. Try to keep that in mind when you type instead making condescending remarks to the reader to cover your tracks every time.

        “You can’t create your own reality. If you could I’d have shut up and apologized for being so wrong by now.” — jayvay

        You don’t KNOW that, that’s just your limited belief system talking. And you’re projecting again — as is usual for you.

        “Because–spoiler alert–he isn’t real.” — jayvay

        We’ve been through this before. You can’t state the above as an objective fact; it’s only your subjective opinion. It is your claim, so you have to prove it if you want to state it as an absolute . Also, if you actually read the Seth material you’d know that even Jane Roberts herself doesn’t claim Seth to be “real”. Do you see the irony here?

        “You’re presenting “Seth” philosophy as if it is on par with other philosophies. It isn’t. Seth is saying THIS IS HOW REALITY WORKS. He’s not presenting something to ponder but something to believe in and try.” — jayvay

        There are plenty of other philosophies that state “how reality works” as opposed to just “pondering”. Google “list of philosophies” to convince yourself. Seth is therefore “on par with other philosophies” in that context.

      • “You don’t KNOW that, that’s just your limited belief system talking. And you’re projecting again — as is usual for you.”

        Then prove me wrong. Show me. Create the better reality. Go out there and make it happen. I’d love to be wrong on this. I’d love to have control like that. But I don’t because it does not exist. You can keep claiming otherwise but until you can show me otherwise, it’s a hollow claim.

        And no, I do not have to prove Seth isn’t real. The burden of proof for an extraordinary claim is on the Sethites. Prove that he is. But as you said, Jane Roberts didn’t even go that far.

        I have read the Seth material. For some reason you got it stuck in your head that I hadn’t and I didn’t bother to clear that up for you, because… you know… it’s in the title of the blog post. For the record, I read “Seth Speaks.” I apologize that I wasn’t as thrilled with it as I should have been. Maybe next lifetime.

      • “Then prove me wrong. Show me. Create the better reality. Go out there and make it happen. I’d love to be wrong on this. I’d love to have control like that. But I don’t because it does not exist. You can keep claiming otherwise but until you can show me otherwise, it’s a hollow claim.” — jayvay

        Because you believe you can’t control your own reality doesn’t mean that it “does not exist” for others. You’re just stating your own limited belief which is completely subjective. Also, I’m not interested in convincing you of anything. I’m just pointing out your glaring fallacies on this topic.

        “And no, I do not have to prove Seth isn’t real. The burden of proof for an extraordinary claim is on the Sethites. Prove that he is. But as you said, Jane Roberts didn’t even go that far.” — jayvay

        You’re wrong. The burden of proof is on the person making the claim. That means YOU since it’s YOU who’s making the claim, not me. (I don’t speak for “Sethites”.) Also, don’t overstate Jane’s skepticism, she was just open to the possibility that Seth MAY BE an aspect of her own personality.

      • jayvay: Regarding the burden of proof argument we’re having, I think the below illustrates my point:

        Two people, 1 and 2, have two competing theories, X and Y. One of them is true. Which is true: X or Y?

        Person 1 says X is true
        Person 2 says X is false

        Person 1 has the burden of proof, but so does person 2. Otherwise, person 2 has established that Y is true without providing any evidence — which can’t be right.

        To see how the above makes sense in a less controversial way than the Seth topic, first imagine:

        X = Dark Matter comes from hidden mass
        Y = Dark Matter comes from warped space

        Person 2 has to provide some sort of data which disproves the hidden mass theory OR proves the warped space theory in order to claim that X is false. It’s not enough to just simply assert that the hidden mass theory is untrue without evidence.

        To see how the same applies to Seth, install our arguments into X and Y and perform the same logic:

        X = Seth material came from Seth
        Y = Seth material came from Jane

        By the same reasoning, you saying that “Seth isn’t real” is insufficient in establishing a valid basis to support that claim as being fact. Neither of the above Seth propositions can be claimed to objectively true without proving OR disproving one or the other. Although, the question of what constitutes objective and subjective proof one way or the other is open to debate.

    • Hey Alexander, people are allowed to create their own limitations, that’s how they fail to figure out what life is all about. They don’t have a clue. They are closed-minded and they can’t THINK…cheers, ron, Seth teacher

  24. Also an edit since i wasn’t signed in. If you partaken in the egg nog joke because of my profile picture of me sipping, that would be not that. It would be my own rendition of rare bourbon non alcoholic that took me 1 year and 7 months to intake. Also with what Jeff said your comments go off the deep end past your original post might want to edit your OP.

  25. I feel truly sorry from the bottom of my heart for people who believe in Seth. However, I know it is not in my power, neither in the power of any forum to convince people otherwise. If patient suffers with a delusion of grandeur the first thing psychiatrist would never ever do is try to convince him that he is wrong. Such a person would get really angry and resentful and if the doctor would succeed in the process, the patient would be left without nothing – feeling vulnerable, weak and like an unimportant human being… Even if Jane Roberts would admit that Seth wasn’t real, people would still find excuse and believe anyway!!!

    But I don’t judge other people who believe different than me. To do so would be to judge myself because I, myself, was once upon a time a total right wing believer in many cults including Seth. No one could ever convince me otherwise. Only life experience could. I personally see skeptics’ forums not as a way of changing people who believe but perhaps as a way of helping people who doubt.

    The biggest problem I have with Seth and therefore the whole New Age movement is that the complete absence of true moral and spiritual values totally cancels the aim upon which it claims to stand – a better life and a better world. Close analysis of the books and the teachings (of Seth and New Age) proves the fallen moral state of these teachings, as it clearly reflects the ego by which it was written. Let me give you a few examples.

    In the Nature of Personal Reality Jane as Seth speaks in Chapter 8 (page 129) about emotions and how they affect our body. She talks about a schizophrenic Augustus who suffered with a split personality and explains that such a condition is caused by suppressing his natural thoughts of power and believing in his worthlessness. This thread then goes throughout the whole book explaining that our problems, including wars and violence, are caused by our oppressed emotions.

    AND THAT IS THE FUNDAMENTAL FLAWED PREMISE OF THE SETH BOOKS AND THE ENTIRE NEW AGE MOVEMENT!!! (i.e. it is based on ego as opposed to love!!!) Let me explain…

    To believe that our problems are caused by suppressing our emotions is simply wrong. On page 403 she talks about the war in Vietnam and Korea and how ‘the outbreak of violence is often the result of a built-in sense of powerlessness.’ She explains how the war was for the soldiers the only way to release their suppressed feelings of ‘natural aggression.’
    THIS IS SIMPLY WRONG!!!

    Anyone who believes this, is very, very wrong and such a believe will never stop any violence in the world, neither will give anybody a personal peace. Wars, violence, murders, stealing, lying, hating etc. are caused by moral bankruptcy. They are caused because no one is teaching us from an early age how NOT TO GO TO WAR!!! No one is teaching us that to go to war is simply and totally wrong. Many people go to war because being in the army is advertised as being proud of who you are, cool and deserving respect. But needless to say, it is nothing but a lie. No one is teaching us about moral values about true LOVE for ones neighbor, about respect for each other, about respect for our planet, about respect for OURSELVES! We live in a world that has morally fallen and that is why we have so many problems around us.

    Seth is trying to teach us how we can better our life because it is ourselves who create our reality but his teachings are unfortunately a complete hit and miss. He teaches us how to flatter our ego – how to give way to anger and hate, how not to suppress them – the only way to make things worst for us, as opposed to teach us how to love and therefore to ‘create better reality’ for us. These teachings could not possibly go any worst than that because once somebody believes that to be angry is good or to hate is good, the person is finished. The person is locked in a prison called ego.

    Look at another example. On page 402/403 Seth (as Jane) says: ‘Regardless of what you have been told, hatred does not initiate strong violence. Period.’ Excuse me?! I think this sentence deserves a moment of silence in order to realize how deeply wrong these teachings are. Dear Seth believer, I honestly, truly honestly, hope that you don’t believe this! Hate is at the core of violence! Hate is a malicious emotion that if harbored will almost certainly lead to violence!!! Look, for example, here in the UK recently after Brexit, there was such an increase in attacks on immigrants. Why? Because the Brexit gave way to people to show openly what was in their hearts – certainly not love but hate!!!

    Now look at another example of how morally wrong these teachings are. On pages 144 – 148 Seth (i.e. Jane) talks about guilt and how natural guilt is a tool that is suppose to help us to distinguish between good and bad. On page 146 Seth (i.e. Jane) says: ‘When women give birth in a crowded world they also know, and with a portion of their conscious mind, that a violation is involved.’ In the context of Seth (as explained on pages 144 – 148) it means that women feels, and SHOULD feel, guilty (as a result of ‘good’ guilt) when she has children in this overpopulated world because our overpopulation is damaging other species. This concept is another total proof that this book was written by a man, with a human limited way of thinking and not a god. So, first of all, Seth says that we can create our own reality and that there are absolutely no limits to what we can do (i.e. soul has unlimited potential, everything is energy and therefore inexhaustible) but unfortunately he forgot to add right behind that sentence that there is not enough space in the world for all of us and we can create everything we want apart from having too many children. Actually, how many children are too many? Is one child too many? Or perhaps we shouldn’t have any at all?

    Seth also forgot that this planet could carry A LOT MORE people than the ones that are already on this planet. Seth forgot that the resources of this Earth are so abundant that if food was equally divided every human being would live abundantly and would have enough to eat. The world wastes 1.6bn tones of food every year only because the food is not symmetric (such as crooked vegetables). This food is thrown away like rubbish, while other people are starving in Africa. Poverty is man made. It is expected that by 2050 the population of the world could reach more than 9 billion people and new research shows that with the right support (such as ‘investment in infrastructure, trade, anti-poverty and food security policies) we should be ok. So, ‘women should feel guilty for having children’ is certainly NOT a god’s message!!!

    The Seth books are very sad. In Chapter 11 (page 198) Seth (i.e. Jane) speaks about our beliefs and how we can change them in the conscious mind. He is talking about Jane and how she has to work on her own limiting believes and then on page 223 Seth says about Jane: ‘He (referring to Jane) also understood, (long pause), that he could not use me as a crutch’. This is really sad because it shows there is no true love, no compassion, no help. If you compare this to another spiritual book, such as the Bible, for example, (which, by the way, the Seth books don’t even touch and don’t even go anywhere near it!!!) you will see how different the message in the Bible is. Jesus said in John 6th chapter (verses 35-37): ‘Whoever comes to me will never go hungry, and whoever believes in me will never be thirsty, … and whoever comes to me I will never drive away’.

    Jesus made you realize what really matters, like for example, the story of the Good Samaritan – Priest passed and Levite passed by the man who was robbed (probably a Jew) and didn’t help him. But the Samaritan (Samaritans didn’t like the Jews) helped him out of compassion and mercy. Jesus shows in this story that it is not about what we believe (religions, believes) but it is about who we are as people (how well we love) that matters.

    You see, this is what it bothering me about the whole thing. The Seth books completely lack wisdom and depth. It is just information provided. It doesn’t make you ‘realize something’. Lots of people with the ‘you create your reality mindset’ believe that they somehow created bad events in their lives and people who see other people suffer often say it is their fault. Jesus on the other hand never judged people. Look at the story about women who done adultery (John 8). When the Pharisees brought her to Jesus they said that she should be stoned and they asked him what should they do. What did Jesus say? He said: ‘Whoever is without sin among you, let him be the first to cast a stone at her.’ Did anybody cast the stone? NONE! When they all left Jesus asked the women: ‘Woman, where are your accusers? Has no one condemned you?’. She says, ‘no one’ and then Jesus says: ‘Neither do I condemn you’. Did he say, she created this herself or that if she changed her believes she wouldn’t be in such a situation? Did he ever judge the sick people, the weak and the broken? No! Not ever! He showed how to love.

    I think that this is where lots of New Age believers go wrong. They want to create their own reality by changing their believes but fall terribly short because it is a false premise. I believe we can achieve things and believing that we can become more is a good thing. But I don’t believe that our beliefs have any ‘attracting power’. In my opinion, we as such don’t create anything by our beliefs, but by who we are, by becoming. The core of us is pure. The core of us, this pure center, this love is what can ever change anything in our lives. However, to access this higher reality and therefore to create a better life we ultimately have to let go of fear, hate, anger, jealousy, pride.. the so called ego. Look, what Jesus says in John 15: 7-10:

    ‘If you abide in me, and my words abide in you, ask whatever you wish, and it will be done for you. By this my Father is glorified, that you bear much fruit and so prove to be my disciples. As the father has loved me, so have I loved you. Abide in my love. If you keep my commandments, you will abide in my love, just as I have kept my Father’s commandments and abide in his love. These things I have spoken to you, that my joy may be in you, and that your joy may be full.’

    You see, if there is any way to create better reality or to get ‘what we want’, perhaps there is a way but whichever way it is, it certainly is not the ‘Seth way’.

    There is life after Seth. Leaving Seth behind doesn’t mean you cannot achieve what you want. It just mean that you will be free of a science fiction dogma that I could only call a pseudo-spirituality.

  26. New age spirituality is a by-product of our current culture (ie, capitalism, commercialism, individualism, etc). It lacks compassion for the down-trodden, probably because it believes that they somehow “deserve” their miserable plight due to bad karma. Unfortunately, western spirituality has been hijacked by profit-centered narcissists ever since the early 70s. People everywhere are looking for “hope”, and if you can find a way to sell and market it, you’re going to make a lot of money.

    Another approach would be to sit back and reflect as to why so many people are so desperately looking for “hope” in the first place. Could it be that ever since the early 70s, there has been a decline in spending/investment in certain communities and job sectors and a sustained attack on various social services (eg, the attempts to privatize everything!)? Since traditional forms of security have been eroding over the last 50 years, it looks as though people have been seeking “alternative forms” of security and hope.

    During the early 1960s, the top marginal income tax rate was 90% (eg, corporate CEOs) – today this would be called “the evils of socialism”. In comparison, today’s top rate is 39.6%. Gee, I wonder which social classes have to make up for the shortfall? It must be those “lazy” middle and working class scoundrels – always whining about how bad things are (sarcasm intended). Why don’t they just accept their miserable fate? Wait a minute, they don’t have to. They’ve got new age philosophy to rationalize all of this socio-economic injustice! Whew, glad that came along at just the right time, otherwise I might have had to do something “inconvenient” like fight for a more equal society. But I don’t have to worry about that now, instead, I just have to focus on myself. Aren’t I lucky? And you could be too, if you just invest $25 in my new book and …

    More fun facts: In 1965, the ratio of CEO pay to average worker salary was 20 to 1. In 2014, it was 303 to 1. A slight increase, no? Looks like the distribution of wealth has shifted “slightly” over the last 50 years. What’s this got to do with new age spirituality? A lot, actually. Most people don’t want to think of themselves as “economic losers”, so there’s got to be a way out of this mess. Oh look, here comes Deepak/ Wayne/ Eckhart reassuring us that it’s all about “creating our own reality” – it’s so simple, you just have to believe and the rest will take care of itself. It’s all quantum physics, so nothing to worry about. Forget about political, economic, social and cultural institutions which cause such tremendous inequality in the first place; just focus on your beliefs and quantum physics will do the rest.

    I’m not saying that beliefs are irrelevant, just that actions are usually much better at getting things done. By not acting, who benefits?

    • 1. Correlation doesn’t imply causation (see “post hoc logical fallacy”).

      2. Your claim that “new-agers” aren’t politically aware/active is also fallacious.

      3. If you read Seth you’d know that his message is about following through with action.

      • I haven’t met any “new-agers” who are politically aware, although I’m sure that they do exist. The ones I’ve come across seem to be apolitical. They believe that the “self” (ie, the individual) is all-important.

        I have read some western new-age literature (not Seth), and all of it focuses on the individual. I don’t remember any “calls to social action” anywhere. Eastern spirituality, on the other hand, seems to focus on the collective. The individual ego is not the “be all, end all” of their philosophy. That’s not to say that the individual is unimportant, just that it’s not everything.

        If Seth’s message is about “following through with action”, then exactly what kind of action was Seth referring to? Was it social, political, cultural? Was Jane Roberts politically aware/active?

        The evidence that I’ve seen still suggests that “western spirituality” has been overly influenced by our society’s core value system: the profit motive. This results in a spiritual philosophy which has, at its core, the guiding principle of profit.

        Most truly spiritual people that I’ve met lived in small, remote communities far away from the commercialism of big cities. The reason they gave for this was that they just weren’t interested in the distractions, stress and superficiality of big city life anymore. They were interested in living a quiet life where they could cultivate their character, depth and substance. Some were shamans, psychics, etc but most of them didn’t advertise, instead, they survived by “word of mouth”. Yes, there are still some people who live this way (off the grid), and they seem to be happier for it.

        For our society to evolve, we need to confront the existing paradigm based on competition, ego and profit and replace it with a new paradigm based on co-operation, compassion and concern for all human beings. As some people say, “all lives matter”.

      • In your first reply to me you state,

        “Truly spiritual people still do exist…They could be social workers, charity workers, volunteers who help out in homeless shelters or soup kitchens, as well as those who fight for justice for the wrongly convicted.”

        In you most recent response you say,

        “Most truly spiritual people that I’ve met lived in small, remote communities far away from the commercialism of big cities…Some were shamans, psychics, etc but most of them didn’t advertise, instead, they survived by “word of mouth”. ”

        In the above you provide very specific examples of who you consider to be “truly spiritual people”. You go so far as to specify their occupations, where they live, and how they survive. You also state what you consider to be non-spiritual:

        “I have read some western new-age literature (not Seth), and all of it focuses on the individual. I don’t remember any “calls to social action” anywhere. Eastern spirituality, on the other hand, seems to focus on the collective.

        Do your friends living “off the grid” ever make “calls to action”? Do they “focus on the collective” in their remote outposts? My guess is they don’t. I don’t see a contradiction in that, though. Outward positive expressions and good deeds must first originate from within.

        True spiritual awareness lies in the recognition that separateness is an illusion. To understand one’s self is to understand that “all that is” is unified in the “One”. With that perspective comes real empathy which naturally translates to helping others. It becomes self evident that helping others is to help one’s self.

        It may seem paradoxical that to truly embody the noble characteristics that you list, “co-operation, compassion and concern for all human beings” one must go inward first. However, if you think about it, it can’t be any other way. “Individualism” isn’t the goal; “unity” is. To get there, one must strip away (annihilate) the ego of self. The “ego of self” is contained in the individual — not in others — so that is where the focus needs to be for enlightenment to occur. It’s also not necessary to obtain pure clarity in that regard since most people on the spiritual path (including most new-agers) already instinctively understand this truth.

        The Buddha said:

        “Searching all directions with one’s awareness, one finds no one dearer than oneself. In the same way, others are fiercely dear to themselves. So one should not hurt others if one loves oneself.”

      • I agree with your point regarding delving inward first in order to strip away all the falsity of ego. This is a necessary precondition in being able to help others. And yes, I agree that it can’t be any other way. Unfortunately, some people get caught up in “ego-stripping” to such an extent that they end up believing it’s the ultimate purpose on the spiritual path, without realizing that it’s just the first step. The second step is to convert this to some sort of meaningful social action. I think this is the difficult part.

        In my previous post I mentioned some people who were living “off the grid” in order to pursue the spiritual path (or at least their version of it). I don’t judge them at all, even though I know that they probably aren’t interested in “social action” of any kind. Each one of us has their own unique path to follow, and social action may not be for everybody. At the same time, I find it mildly disappointing since these people could contribute greatly to society’s evolution, especially in the political sphere. (Maybe one day they will, who knows?).

        If more spiritual people were to become socially/politically active, think of the possible outcomes. It’s a tragedy that most people who get involved in politics are primarily motivated by power, ego, etc. I think Bernie Sanders was different; his policies seemed to reflect a concern for all citizens, not just some groups. This is an example of trying to convert spiritual ideas into practice. Unfortunately, it didn’t work out for many reasons, but at least it mobilized people in many parts of the country towards a common goal. It shows that there is still a long way to go, but the will to evolve does exist, both individually and collectively.

      • “In my previous post I mentioned some people who were living “off the grid” in order to pursue the spiritual path (or at least their version of it). I don’t judge them at all, even though I know that they probably aren’t interested in “social action” of any kind.”

        Yes, you did “judge them”. You previously said those you met in remote locations living “off the grid” were “truly spiritual people”. Now you refer to them as “some people” who are on the “spiritual path” who “probably aren’t interested in ‘social action’ of any kind”. In contrast, you “judged” new-agers as not being “truly spiritual” based on your generalizations that they’re into individualism and not politically active. In your attempt to stereotype people into convenient bundles which satisfy you personal bias you reveal the inconsistency of your logic.

      • Unity is, of course, important and love and peace… However, I don’t think that it is the point of the ‘great-society’s’ comment. The point is that many New Age followers believe that they are responsible for everything that happens to them. They are also told that with the right mindset/believe they can be, do or have anything they want.

        A person who believes this will never blame anybody for their misfortune. By this the blame is taken off the governments and other outside conditions. I remember when I was listening to Esther Hicks (a New Age cult) when she was saying with passion that Donald Trump’s presidentship has ‘minuscule impact on your life’. In reality anybody who is in power has a massive impact on whatever is going on in the country.

        It is important that people are aware of what is going on in politics. Political decisions have MASSIVE impact on people’s lives. For example, here in the UK a new law has been made recently regarding immigration policies. A person can bring a non-European partner to the UK only if he/she earns more than £18000 a year! Many families will be deeply affected by a decision like this. The government has caused this and it would be very non-human to say that the people have caused this to themselves or somehow attracted it to their lives.

        You see, one of the biggest problems I have with the New Age teachings is that it really does look fantastic at the first sight – you are free, you are the creator of your own reality, you can be, do or have anything you want and all that with such a simple fact as changing the way you think. There is lots of hope and also love. You are often told you are good and loved. But as you go on and really try to apply these ‘teachings’ into your life, your heart will become a heart of stone. You will blame yourself more and more for the misfortune in your life and you will see the same in the lives of others. You will say that ‘they attracted bad events’ to their lives, when in reality there are many factors why people are where they are. Also, as you go on you will loose compassion for human suffering. Again, I remember when I was listening to Esther Hicks, how she often encouraged people to separate themselves from suffering and to take 100% responsibility for whatever is happening in their lives. I also remember when somebody asked her if it was better, with EQUAL passion(!!!), to either build a homeless shelter or to go and sail around the world. What do you think was her answer? Yes, of course – to go and sail around the world!!! And the crowds were cheering!!!

        Unfortunately, there are many people within the New Age communities with similar mindset. We need social justice and a world with fairer economy. I don’t know how are we ever going to achieve this, but I know for sure not by turning a blind eye to people’s suffering.

      • Jeff,

        Your comments are hostile, whereas mine aren’t. You won’t create social unity like this.

        I was simply expressing my own views regarding certain people who consider themselves to be spiritual, while neglecting the social and political dimensions to human existence. If you look at what I wrote, I also stated that “everyone has their own unique path to follow, and social action may not be for everybody”. I don’t see any stereotyping here.

        Basically, I’d like to see more spiritual people become socially/politically active, as I think it could only have a beneficial effect for society. The fact that many spiritual people choose to remain apolitical is something which I find mildly disappointing (as I wrote above). Still, that doesn’t equate to a wholesale condemnation of them. I don’t think it’s wrong to point out certain “weaknesses” in a particular movement or subculture, in fact, I think it’s necessary in order to improve it.

      • Your simplistic New Age generalizations aside, the point I was making was that by going inward through spiritual practice one can’t help but become more empathetic which naturally leads to becoming more politically aware. The point GS was trying to make was that New Agers aren’t truly spiritual because, according to him/her, they’re not participating in “meaningful social action”. Besides being an unsubstantiated claim, I pointed out the inconsistency in that characterization since GS had previously characterized others living “off-the-grid” as being “truly spiritual” who were NOT engaged in “meaningful social action”.

      • great society:

        “Your comments are hostile, whereas mine aren’t. You won’t create social unity like this.”

        LOL. I’m not being hostile; I’m merely pointing out the inconsistency in your logic. “Unity” doesn’t mean acquiescence to fallacious reasoning. (See: Jimmy Dore – “Corporate Democrat Unwittingly Slams Himself While Attacking Progressive”.)

        “If you look at what I wrote, I also stated that ‘everyone has their own unique path to follow, and social action may not be for everybody’. I don’t see any stereotyping here.”

        You said the above only after I called you out on your inconsistency. In other words, you backpedaled.

        “The fact that many spiritual people choose to remain apolitical is something which I find mildly disappointing (as I wrote above). Still, that doesn’t equate to a wholesale condemnation of them.”

        Again, you wrote “mildly disappointing” after the fact. Before you wrote,

        “New age spirituality is a by-product of our current culture (ie, capitalism, commercialism, individualism, etc). It lacks compassion for the down-trodden” and has been “hijacked by profit-centered narcissists”. You further state that people in movement are “apolitical” and “believe that the ‘self’ (ie, the individual) is all-important.” You also said,

        “they end up believing [ego-stripping is] the ultimate purpose on the spiritual path, without realizing that it’s just the first step. The second step is to convert this to some sort of meaningful social action.”

        Given your comments above, you saying “mildly disappointing” is a gross mischaracterization since it was central to your thesis regarding the movement, which was — contrary to what you said — a blatant “condemnation”.

        “I don’t think it’s wrong to point out certain “weaknesses” in a particular movement or subculture, in fact, I think it’s necessary in order to improve it.”

        I agree. Except the weakness lies not within an individual’s personal spiritual path, but with those whose impulse is to impugn their quest with self-serving and erroneous generalizations.

        Btw: Most post beginning with “Your simplistic…” was meant in response to Iha777. For some reason it’s currently placed out of sequence.

  27. The realities we experience- they are indeed our own creations. The physical world is an effect, not a cause. You cannot change the reflection in a mirror until you change what is in front of it. You have created the mirror, and you have created what is in front of it. Take responsibility for that, or bounce around like a pinball through eternity. It’s your choice.

  28. Hi all, my name is Nihal. I was searching for Seth’s remarks on western democracy when I stumbled across this blog. I’ve spent 46 years now with the Seth Material (around 30 books in all). My Buddhist background didn’t satisfy me, neither did Hinduism & Islam. I came across Eckankar & other spiritual paths. I went deep into the New Testament at the same time that I came across the Seth Material from its beginner books to the most advanced, & ironically, Christ sustained me till I could make some sense out of Seth.
    There is no need to argue for Seth. All of us are born into various circumstances from which it may appear exceedingly difficult to extricate ourselves from. But it is really very simple if we understand that the position we are in is where we have to work from. We are to use this concept of forming our own reality to reprogram ourselves out of the situation we are in. The miraculous shift in circumstances that we desire will not occur if we so convincingly believe that it is difficult to do so. Seth represents & speaks for our own inner identity. So I would like to think that all of us will endeavour to read all of Seth’s books to discover what reality is all about. No where else is there a well defined road map that offers to take us on the road to infinity.
    Seth has undoubtedly enriched me emotionally more than any other spiritual discipline could have afforded me, & the best physical & out-of-body experiences are yet to come. I leave you all with best wishes that we will use our conscious minds to “discriminate among those thoughts as to which ones you want to form into your system of beliefs, but in doing so, you are not to pretend blindness…” Over & out.

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